Refining ore/crystals

[I'd rather be playing RuneScape]

Right so as the TEC i've build upgraded the cargoholds for ships and researched the most effective methods of extraction of ore in the game. But why is the yield so low? I mean the yield was at 0.1 for metals and crystals this raises the question on how viable the referineries are? Are they worth using in the game or am I totally using them wrong? And how do I maximize output?

[GoaFan77]

Well here is how refineries work. For each resource extractor at the planet the refinery is at, as well as all resource extractors at adjacent planets, you get additional metal or crystal income depending on the asteroid type. The ideal refinery is thus placed on a planet with many connection to asteroid heavy planets. Neutral extractors in uncolonizeable gravity wells also count and in fact give more income than the ones on colonizeable planets.

The problem is the base value is indeed too low. You need a ton of resource asteroids to be in range of a planet (say 10-12 minimum) for it to have any chance of being competitive with a trade port. And trade ports can increase their income by having a long trade chain, which makes it even harder for refineries to catch up. Further, resource asteroids can only be serviced by 3 refineries at once, after that you get no extra income. In short, its almost always better to build trade ports for extra credits and then buy resources on the black market. Especially for TEC, since they can research that 15% discount.

Also just to give you an idea, in my Enhanced 4X mod I had to increase refinery income by 25% across the board, plus nerf trade ports a little, to make them competitive. Other mods may also have done things to make them more useful.

[I'd rather be playing RuneScape]

Thanks for the tip, i'll be sure to invest my credits better now.

[Lцсᶖаᶇ º¹]

Trade post >> Refinery.

[Magron]

yeah.. my feeling is they've lowered the resource production in rebellion.
I had the economics licked in the original release..now I'm in continual poverty. hehe
which is fundamentally good as new problems keep me interested.

[I'd rather be playing RuneScape]

I'm getting the same feeling, like fleet upkeep is much more of a major drain on my economy then it used to be.

[Crim]

So has anyone done any actual math on this? Just ball parking here, my last game I was playing Vasari Loyalist so I didnt need Research Labs, I had a Trade Port and Refinery in each of my 8-10 planets.
I was making 18 creds per turn from Trade and 3 of each resource per turn from Refineries

That ball parks things fairly favorable towards Refineries, or at the very least each of them as equals


Buying 200 (100 of each) Resource for 450 would take 50 seconds
Earning 100 Resource would take 33 seconds

[I'd rather be playing RuneScape]

Well the thing is I was earning 80-100 credits from trade vs 0.1 metal from Honestly once the credits stack I feel almost as if I should just buy from the blackmarket. Then again Vasari last I checked had no upgrades for cargo-holds (or if they did not many compared to TEC).

[Crim]

Considering TEC stands for Trade Empire Coalition or something, It would make sense that they are best with Trade Ports

[AzureAlliance]

Originally posted by That Canada:

Then again Vasari last I checked had no upgrades for cargo-holds (or if they did not many compared to TEC).

Vasari don't carry more goods; they carry higher quality goods after research. I think the effect on trade income is the same, just named differently.

[GoaFan77]

Originally posted by Talamare:

So has anyone done any actual math on this? Just ball parking here, my last game I was playing Vasari Loyalist so I didnt need Research Labs, I had a Trade Port and Refinery in each of my 8-10 planets.
I was making 18 creds per turn from Trade and 3 of each resource per turn from Refineries

That ball parks things fairly favorable towards Refineries, or at the very least each of them as equals


Buying 200 (100 of each) Resource for 450 would take 50 seconds
Earning 100 Resource would take 33 seconds

There is plenty of math on the subject if you do some digging on the official forums. The mechanic hasn't changed despite all the expansions. It's hard to judge and Empire wide case like that, you have to look at individual planets to get any useful info from it, since refinery income is whole dependent on the planet's location releative to resource extractors.

Originally posted by AzureAlliance:

Originally posted by That Canada:

Then again Vasari last I checked had no upgrades for cargo-holds (or if they did not many compared to TEC).

Vasari don't carry more goods; they carry higher quality goods after research. I think the effect on trade income is the same, just named differently.

That is true, but the TEC research is slightly better because it boosts both trade and refinery income, while the Vasari research only improves trade income.

[Crim]

So, lets see I am a math guy after all. I did some heavy google and found the information on it and did the math myself
Trade Post Income is (x*1)+(0.075*x^2), x is the number of trade posts
Refinery Relative Income is (x*0.06)*5, x is the number of refineries within range

Calculating them seperately, I end up with these results
Number of Trade Posts / Cost of Resources to Build / Credits Per Second / Seconds to Pay Cost / Minutes to Pay Costs

01 2525 1.07500 2349 39.1
02 5050 2.30000 2196 36.6
03 7575 3.67500 2061 34.4
04 10100 5.2000 1942 32.4
05 12625 6.8750 1836 30.6
06 15150 8.7000 1741 29.0
07 17675 10.675 1656 27.6
08 20200 12.800 1578 26.3
09 22725 15.075 1507 25.1
10 25250 17.500 1443 24.0
11 27775 20.075 1384 23.1
12 30300 22.800 1329 22.1
13 32825 25.675 1278 21.3
14 35350 28.700 1232 20.5
15 37875 31.875 1188 19.8
16 40400 35.200 1148 19.1
17 42925 38.675 1110 18.5
18 45450 42.300 1074 17.9
19 47975 46.075 1041 17.4
20 50500 50.000 1010 16.8

Just incase formatting decides to go bad on me
1 Trade Post takes 39minutes
3 takes 34mins
5 takes 30mins
7 takes 27mins
10 takes 24mins

Note this assumes they are all in a line, if any are not part of that line they are probably going to end up in the 40min category

Refineries are a little easier to calculate, This assumes a single Refinery Station affecting X amount of Refineries

Number of Refineries / Cost to Build / Amount of Resource being Harvested / Amount of Effective Credits being Generated / Time in Seconds to pay costs / Time in Minutes
05 3000 0.30 1.5 2000 33.3
06 3000 0.36 1.8 1667 27.8
07 3000 0.42 2.1 1429 23.8
08 3000 0.48 2.4 1250 20.8
09 3000 0.54 2.7 1111 18.5
10 3000 0.60 3.0 1000 16.7
11 3000 0.66 3.3 0909 15.2
12 3000 0.72 3.6 0833 13.9
13 3000 0.78 3.9 0769 12.8

So a really bad Refinery Station with only 5 nodes would take 33mins
9 Nodes would take 18mins
12 Nodes would take 13mins

If a part of my math is wrong, please correct me
I will place this on Google Spreadsheet, Yes I can factor in % bonuses to trade if you want but this post is long enough

Summary?
If you are playing an average sized maps or if you happen to find a spot with an insane amount of extractors near then Refinery Stations are very profittable

If you are playing on MASSIVE maps, and you are able to create a MASSIVE Trade Chain, Trade Posts are completely OP, otherwise only kinda of average


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1f3O2FUI3IPs_iW3Qdu9o3JGiU6FoXZTciYQI3SJJ_JA/edit#gid=0

[GoaFan77]

What multiple did you use for the resources conversion ratio? While 4.5 may seem a common buy price, keep in mind you can only sell resources at half that price. Therefore resource income only has the value so long as you are using it to substitute black market purchases.

Something still seems wrong with that conclusion but I'll try to double check the math later. :p

Edit: Also your spreadsheet doesn't have public view permissions.

[Crim]

Opps, fixed the view
I used 5, cleaner numbers and true enough

I did try to phrase it as "Credit Equivalent"

Also these numbers do not reflect research which Trade has a ton for, but Refineries have none? Tho I don't feel my point is to prove Trade Posts are bad, just that Refineries are not as bad as people think?

[GoaFan77]

Originally posted by Talamare:

Opps, fixed the view
I used 5, cleaner numbers and true enough

I did try to phrase it as "Credit Equivalent"

Also these numbers do not reflect research which Trade has a ton for, but Refineries have none? Tho I don't feel my point is to prove Trade Posts are bad, just that Refineries are not as bad as people think?

I realize that, but in my experience with the vanilla game they've always been pretty bad. 5 I think is definitely a bit on the high side even for "credit replacement".

[Crim]

Luckily Spreadsheets make it easier to modify a ton of calculations

Im not going to change the purchase values, Honestly they won't matter too much (and because I did the math using manual math instead of automated calculations XD)
It will MOSTLY affect How long Refineries take to become profitable
New Numbers for Refinery, just compare to the numbers above (In Minutes)
35.18518519
29.32098765
25.13227513
21.99074074
19.5473251
17.59259259
15.99326599
14.66049383
13.53276353