Got to vent a little about "Diplomacy".

[Ebithril]

So to start of, I am not saying my word is law or that I am a particularly good player as I mostly play vs. AI.

But I am starting to get a really big gripe with Diplomacy in this game...

First of, everyone start of at war, so I find it just outright infuriating to try and build peace with any of you nearby empires. With no other tactic than... shower them with gifts...
ESPECIALY, since they will attack you at every available oppertunity... and that will ofcourse hurt your standard by defending your territory from defending you from those ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ you have no other intention but to try and be peaceful with.
But since they attack you, and don't even try to deffend more than having a few turrets... they will still get pissy with you, and since you don't actually have any control of the way your people view the other empires - apart from general diplomacy upgrades - and that envoys are only really useful after you have already reached the biggest hurdle which is a cease fire...

I could obviously go on, but it is late, and I just wanted to play a game where I was gonna be really diplomatic straight of with the least resistant empire, which happened to be one of my neighbors, and only for him to send a small fleet agaisnt me and se our relationship drain away...

I even had them to be ready for a trade agreement - but because the diplomacy works in that there are things you do not have control over... you are ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ stuck looking at the number that says "You can ask for a trade agreement... but also, you can not".



And I more than realize this game has been out for, what is it, 10 years? So obviously not expecting a change to a system that at best people feel "meh" about to outright ignoring due to just what I partialy wrote about.

So yea... just a bit of a vent on how drained I feel to even want to try to have a diplomatic playthrough without resorting to having pre.set teams at the start.
I just hope that if there is a sequel, that this really gets some proper attention.

There, rant venting over... for now!

P.S
Oh, and before I post...
If you start the game with teams... (and teams unlocked)
THE AI WILL DO ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ EXCEPT DEMANDING YOU TO ATTACK YOUR ALLY!!!
THAT IS ALL THEY FREAKING DO!! That is the level of "diplomacy" available to you.

[Sagi]

well it's mainly a wargame.
I agree to the fullest that diplomacy both in ai as in multiplayer games could have a much bigger impact then it now with only a few other mechanics has and is definitly a missed opportunity.

[Ebithril]

Originally posted by Stylistic Sagittarius NL:

well it's mainly a wargame.
I agree to the fullest that diplomacy both in ai as in multiplayer games could have a much bigger impact then it now with only a few other mechanics has and is definitly a missed opportunity.

Yea, it is primarily a wargame.
For me personaly, if I am offered a "diplomacy" system in a wargame I really want it to be fleshed out, or rather leave it out completely and just focus on battle with pre-setup teams.

Fully, and painfuly aware that good AI, and satisfying diplomacy AI is not easy to design.

I wish they take a look at Total Warhammer 2.
Now, I will obviously not say TW2 has a perfect diplomacy system there are systems there that I wish was expanded, skiped or reworked - but it still functions leagues better than Sins do.

I think a big part to this is that "At War" is not the deafult setting you start with, except with 1 or 2 factions.
Everyone else you meet you are at peace with until you piss them of enough, or that you have lore-related modifiers that make peace hard to maintain.
Ex. High Elves Vs. Dark Elves have obviously rather big negative diplomacy modifiers.


Well, bottom line, I guess it comes down to what they focused on.
Total Warhammer 2 is primarily a single player, with some very limited co-op, and where PvP usually evolves around "quick-battles". So Diplomacy had to atleast be rated "ok".
And Sins being design almost fully as a player vs. player.
It is obvious to see why they put such a laughable amount of focus on making the AI Diplomacy enjoyable, because the focus just wasn't there.
However, as I read up a decent amount on comments and posts all over - very few, if anyone, actually enjoy the diplomacy in PvP (or just think the time + resource investment isn't worth it.)

So for now, we can just dream that Sins of a Solar Empire 2 will one day exist, and where we hope they have taken a few notes on what to improve by then. :)

[Sagi]

Rise of nations diplomacy especially ai works exactly like you describe.
And it's not TBS like total warhammer campaigns are.

As for sins. In a much older topic i already suggested they should give some credit income when envoys are using their abilities on other players planets on top of them not using ship supply (i believe there is some mod who does give the option to turn into a diplomatic center simular like a starbase and thus neglecting ship supply).

But if it is in the players intrest to send envoys out then the whole diplomacy branch would be much more interesting since it will be researched cuz the envoys are out there. More abilities would also mean more income.

Not sure if we will ever see a sequel. My exp. here is that they don't announce alot of news.
This can be good meaning that for al we know sins 2 could be in full development, or not at all. Early announcements often lead to many people nagging, demanding things like early acces and then bad review it for not being complete. If i was a developer and given the choice i would not announce a new game more then 1 month ahead.

[WOEaintME]

Originally posted by Ebithril:

I wish they take a look at Total Warhammer 2.
Now, I will obviously not say TW2 has a perfect diplomacy system there are systems there that I wish was expanded, skiped or reworked - but it still functions leagues better than Sins do.

I think a big part to this is that "At War" is not the deafult setting you start with, except with 1 or 2 factions.
Everyone else you meet you are at peace with until you piss them of enough, or that you have lore-related modifiers that make peace hard to maintain.
Ex. High Elves Vs. Dark Elves have obviously rather big negative diplomacy modifiers.

Well, bottom line, I guess it comes down to what they focused on.
Total Warhammer 2 is primarily a single player, with some very limited co-op, and where PvP usually evolves around "quick-battles". So Diplomacy had to atleast be rated "ok".

Warhammer 2 diplomacy is, imo, just as bad (unmodded). Although there is the "At War" mechanic the AI will declare war quite randomly on the player. "Great Power" penalty means you quickly get everyone to hate you and end up at war with just about everyone. If the AI better chose when to declare war (I haven't even found a mod that prevents random ai from across the world declaring war on me when our relationship is hovering around 0) and you used the "Loreful Great Power" mod then it would be pretty good imo.

In Sins, I just send diplomatic cruisers to ai with the best relationship scores and let that build up.

Both games are bad, just in different ways.

[GoaFan77]

Sins definitely is quirky with diplomacy. It is quite possible to make friends in Open Diplomacy games, but with some limitations.

A. Do not ever count on making peace with your neighbors. As you mention you start at war and you will have to skirmish with the AI and kill their units, which they do not like. This means the best candidates to ally with are on the other side of your neighbors. Assuming they are also at war with your neighbors, they will like that you are destroying their ships and you may soon be able to form an alliance to attack the enemy from both sides.

B. Some factions like TEC Rebels and Vasari Loyalists really suck at making allies with most other factions. You will either need to ally with your own faction, or better yet just lock teams so you don't need to worry about your terrible diplomacy modifiers.

C. A trade pact is a good first step to slowly start building positive relationship with another faction, plus it protects your commerce from being raided. Combined with the relation ship techs, hopefully you can get a cease fire shortly after with some gifts or giving them missions. Once you have a cease fire, some envoys should be able to get you to pacts and a formal alliance.

D. Make sure you have allied victory on, otherwise after everyone else is dealt with you'll have to fight your allies too. There can only be one winner with this option off.

[Shellbie]

Once war has been undertaken, no peace is made by pretending there is no war.

[Ebithril]

Originally posted by Stylistic Sagittarius NL:

Not sure if we will ever see a sequel. My exp. here is that they don't announce alot of news.
This can be good meaning that for al we know sins 2 could be in full development, or not at all. Early announcements often lead to many people nagging, demanding things like early acces and then bad review it for not being complete. If i was a developer and given the choice i would not announce a new game more then 1 month ahead.

HAH!
Me either!
I mean, maybe a little more than 1 month, obviously - but not to far in advance like... Oh, I do not know, Cyberpunk! XD
hehe!

[Ebithril]

Originally posted by GoaFan77:

Sins definitely is quirky with diplomacy. It is quite possible to make friends in Open Diplomacy games, but with some limitations.

A. Do not ever count on making peace with your neighbors. As you mention you start at war and you will have to skirmish with the AI and kill their units, which they do not like. This means the best candidates to ally with are on the other side of your neighbors. Assuming they are also at war with your neighbors, they will like that you are destroying their ships and you may soon be able to form an alliance to attack the enemy from both sides.

B. Some factions like TEC Rebels and Vasari Loyalists really suck at making allies with most other factions. You will either need to ally with your own faction, or better yet just lock teams so you don't need to worry about your terrible diplomacy modifiers.

C. A trade pact is a good first step to slowly start building positive relationship with another faction, plus it protects your commerce from being raided. Combined with the relation ship techs, hopefully you can get a cease fire shortly after with some gifts or giving them missions. Once you have a cease fire, some envoys should be able to get you to pacts and a formal alliance.

D. Make sure you have allied victory on, otherwise after everyone else is dealt with you'll have to fight your allies too. There can only be one winner with this option off.

A: Yea, I obviously get this.
I just wish there were better tools available where you could build early treaties without needing to spend, I do not know how much time and resources to negate certain modifiers.

B: Hmm, I never really looked at their modifiers and compared them to their racial coutnerparts, but yea, obviously make sense as both factions are lore-wise aggresive.
Heck, TEC has a lot of "BLOODLUST" in their research tooltips! :P

C: Yea, this is another funny thing to me... that you get a trade agreement before you get cease fire agreement.
This obviously mean that you kind of want to be nearby to trade as it will take their empire into consideration for trade routes.
This obviously create issue, that while the trade vessels are "diplomaticly immune" you will still have the AI repeatedly go into your territory and attack you... so, I dunno, something more than just trade agreement to help lift relations past the point where the AI will not be to dumbt to realize you are already at POSSITIVE relationship, but they will still attack you.
Nothing quite like seeing their relationship rating at ALMOST ready to accept a cease fire and... Oh, look, their armada advancing on our neighboring plantet - bye bye rating! :(

D: This on I do not mind to have either turned on or off.
I like that this is a setting they have that will shape how the late game ends up with backstabing and what not, or to help solidify.
So the fact that this is a feature is a BIG plus in my book for this game. Both settings create very different experiences.
But also, at that point you have already maxed all research, you are more than likely SWIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIMING in credits and resources... so at that point, Diplomacy stops being even remotely relevant soooo... :(

[Fyst]

Out of curiosity, which real-time strategy game (not turn based) has the best diplomacy system? The game has to also support diplomacy in both single and multi-player modes.

[Ebithril]

Originally posted by Fyst:

Out of curiosity, which real-time strategy game (not turn based) has the best diplomacy system? The game has to also support diplomacy in both single and multi-player modes.

I wish I had a good answer to that.
Personaly, I kind of stopped playing most, if not all RTS after my teens.
Sins being one of the exceptions I come back to every once in a while, because I like the scope of the battlefield and all that.

And as far as I can think of RTS titles - pure RTS with no TBS overworld view what so ever... I fail to think of any RTS that I have heard of that has Diplomacy in it.
Most RTS focuses on the "Quick match" formulas where you are expected to beat something in avg. 5-20 minutes going at it 1v1, 2v2 or 3v3, so Diplomacy is generaly not even a thing for obvious reasons. :P

So me personaly can not think of any 100% RTS only games with DIplomacy.

[Sagi]

Originally posted by Fyst:

Out of curiosity, which real-time strategy game (not turn based) has the best diplomacy system? The game has to also support diplomacy in both single and multi-player modes.

Rise of nations has a very good diplomacy system.
(demand resources to maintain treaties/give resources but only if accepting certain treaties. trade resources for resources without negative modifier from the market and start in peace and have to declare war instead of starting at war)

Add the missions (and maybe envoys if they are both beneficial) from sins to it and you have very good diplomacy system.

[Panda]

i wish sins had tributes and vassals :)

[GoaFan77]

Originally posted by Stylistic Sagittarius NL:

Originally posted by Fyst:

Out of curiosity, which real-time strategy game (not turn based) has the best diplomacy system? The game has to also support diplomacy in both single and multi-player modes.

Rise of nations has a very good diplomacy system.
(demand resources to maintain treaties/give resources but only if accepting certain treaties. trade resources for resources without negative modifier from the market and start in peace and have to declare war instead of starting at war)

Add the missions (and maybe envoys if they are both beneficial) from sins to it and you have very good diplomacy system.

Rise of Nations was the first thing that came to mind as well. I believe peace was the default diplomatic status there. The main concern with that is how to handle neutral territory. In rise of nations you had to build cities and forts. In Sins it would probably turn into some colonizer rush.

[Sagi]

well that's where culture might do a trick or two.

[GoaFan77]

Indeed. Maybe a way for culture to affect diplomacy would be interesting too.