Refineries vs trade ports

[Sagi]

Old but still relevant problem.

In most cases trade ports give a higher income over refineries.
This while refineries cost more over trade ports...

Trade ports get boosted by the longest trade route, refineries have no boost at all.
Refineries have boundries by extractors an only be served by 3 refineries (neutral 4)
Trade ports can be spammed mindlessly.

I think refineries really need a buf and many people agree.
This would make the economic managing part of the game alot more interesting.
Refineries should be that efficient that your goals would be to have every extractor at least at 2/3 refineries serviced.
How you then place refeneries so they can service the most extractors and by doing this efficiently THEN make up more room for trade ports.

It would also make planets more interesting to see rather for fighting yet another planet spammed full with trade ports.

Another boost could be to double the price cap for resources so when people would buy alot of the same resource the price would go up higher, automaticly making refenieries more interesting as sellign resources can then be more lucrative.

right now, once every 5 games you play have 1 planet in wich it is more interesting to make refineries and it simply isn't worth your attention and that's a shame.
p.s. i know there are mods but i'm a vanilla player

[lordcrekit]

Refiners serve all the planets on adjacent hyperlanes and you can put them on planets that don't have a trade route. And they can stack with the population improvements.

That said, you kind of need those planets for research right now :x

[GoaFan77]

I absolute think refineries should get a buff.

-Signs

[CursedPanther]

Refineries should probably get a chained bonus just like the trade ports.

[Sagi]

lordcrekit.
You can place trade ports also on planets wich do not contribute to the longest trade route and they bring just the same amaunt of income. You just can't place them on planets wich would shorten your longest trade route but in many maps (unless you playe the really big ons) this happens quite seldom anyway.
i did some calculations on a game in wich a planet had 4 lanes connected with 12 extractors + 2 neutral extractors wich are much better. This planet i gave 3 refineries and 3 trade ports. The longest trade route was 7 planets wich is not all that big.
And STILL the trade ports gave more income over refineries while the refineries cost almost double compared to trade ports...

As for the population upgrades, yes the population upgrades can stack with refineries.
But not many planets are worth of the population upgrades.
While trade ports have their industry upgrades wich makes them even better, refineries have no upgrades whatsowever...

I am not wanting to critizise you altough it seems so.
I just really want some answers to the question why refineries are they way they are compared to trade ports...

[Sagi]

p.s. it would really be nice if a dev could come clean on this topic.
perhaps we are all missing something regarding refineries?

[lordcrekit]

Edited: Thought this was Stellaris.

I'm always swimming in credits anyway I just sell motes and stuff. (Having slaves really helps too).

It's always my industry and forging that's the limitor.

[Sagi]

what are motes?
this game does not have slaves...

U sure you are talking about sins or are you mixing this topic up with another game?

[lordcrekit]

Originally posted by Stylistic Sagittarius NL:

what are motes?
this game does not have slaves...

U sure you are talking about sins or are you mixing this topic up with another game?

...Omg I thought this discussion was on Stellaris for that last post. My bad! My first comment is still relavent though.

[Dezeroth]

I concur, in games I play refineries are avoided because they cost more than trade stations and give a negligible resource bonus

[Sagi]

exactly, not really logical is it?

[z|A|bik2]

Originally posted by Stylistic Sagittarius NL:

Old but still relevant problem.

In most cases trade ports give a higher income over refineries.
This while refineries cost more over trade ports...

Trade ports get boosted by the longest trade route, refineries have no boost at all.
Refineries have boundries by extractors an only be served by 3 refineries (neutral 4)
Trade ports can be spammed mindlessly.

I think refineries really need a buf and many people agree.
This would make the economic managing part of the game alot more interesting.
Refineries should be that efficient that your goals would be to have every extractor at least at 2/3 refineries serviced.
How you then place refeneries so they can service the most extractors and by doing this efficiently THEN make up more room for trade ports.

It would also make planets more interesting to see rather for fighting yet another planet spammed full with trade ports.

Another boost could be to double the price cap for resources so when people would buy alot of the same resource the price would go up higher, automaticly making refenieries more interesting as sellign resources can then be more lucrative.

right now, once every 5 games you play have 1 planet in wich it is more interesting to make refineries and it simply isn't worth your attention and that's a shame.
p.s. i know there are mods but i'm a vanilla player

It is funny how you claim that people agree with you, before you even posted, but you never mentioned who they are. Nevertheless I get your points, but let me bring you mine.

Refineries are obviously not as spammable as trade ports. But this is what makes them special. Buff them and you get just another braindead spam structure. Currently they are a niche structure. Not seen as often as the trade ports, but still seen, and they do their job.

Their niche is not small at all. There are lots of occasions to get a refinery instead of a trade port. Here are the examples:

1. You want to create the longest trade route. You have already a decent long trade route out of 8 planets. You conquered another world, but putting trade there is not viable, since it would reduce your trade route from 8 planets to 4 or less. You do not want to use it for research buildings, so you can go with a refinery to boost your income.

2. You have found a perfect spot with 4 phase lines which lead to mineral-rich systems. Maybe even a neutral one. Putting 3 refineries here would be much more efficient than a trade port. Here is an example where you make a strategic choice over blank place holder for spam. (Edit: Actually num 1. is also strategic :sweatsmile:)

3. You are playing as Vasari. You get early better tech for mineral extraction. Your refinery is one tech lower than a trade port. If you are closed in on a smaller territory, and cannot get a decent trade route. Or maybe you just got screwed by spawn that without a starbase, your trade route is interrupted by a neutral system, a refinery will excell.

3.1 Worst case scenario, you may be unable to create any trade route at all, because you are interrupted by some type of cloud, which disable abilities, and therefore you cannot get a starbase even theoretically in the future, to get your trade route working.

4. You play with many TEC players. TEC empires have a giant disproportion of credit income over minerals. Black market will be constantly over priced. At this point, the value of refineries may 1.5x or even double, just because of the races you are plaing with. And if you happen to be the only Vasari player, you are going to cash out big. Use the standard prices to get the 1.5x income. Use the pirate market, and you will get the 3x income in no time, since your opponents will constantly buy resources.

5. You have found an ice/oceanic/desert/terran world. Those excel at social upgrades and are rather bad at industrial upgrades. But social upgrades deminish the trade income. At some point you already have the 16 labs. So what do you build? Another spam of trade ports with halfed or even quartered income? Nope. You go for refineries and culture on that world.


To conclude, refineries add flavour to the game. Buff them, and they will either become op, and always prefered over trade ports, or equal in spammability with trade ports, or still not viable for spam. Depending on how big the buff will be. But currently refineries are in perfect position in my opinion. They require at least a bit of your time to think about, instead of another brainless spam. Refineries are not absolute, and can be used, just not as often as a trade port. The only buff they could possible use, is the removing of 3 refineries cap. That one does hurt often, when you go for social upgrades. But otherwise, their yields are very much legit.

[Sagi]

hmm i see your points.
However i play more often as vasari but even then i see mu buying resources more over selling them on the black market. Even on the pirate market the credits they give me are not that much better either.
i played on a map in wich i had 3 refineries and 3 trade ports in a planet with 4 lanes to 7 crystal extractors, 6metal extractors + 2 neutral captured crystal extractors.
the 3 refineries made around +2.5 crystal and 1.8 metal whilst the 3 trade ports made 14.7 credits profit. That's barely better and the refineries had such a good spot and costet alot more to build.
the refineries would also never get better over this while trade ports still get better when you expand your trade route + they have planetary upgrades if you choose them for it.
Refineries have nothing more...

as for the other people wich agree on me.
Since my friends are not into this game i can only see what the forums say, and you can find many topics and mods wich say the refineries need a buff.
But i have never found a topic before wich said trade ports need a buff.
If they where balanced you should have to find both topics as OP and UP right?!

even if they are prefered over trade ports they are still balanced becouse each extractor can only be service by 3 refineries meaning that you simply can't spamm your planets full with refineries.
It would just create the trick to place your refineries that good so you need the least amount of them to service all of your exctractors and still save the other logistical slots for other buildings.
perhaps it could work as the first refinery would boost more over the second and the third.
making 1 refinery alot better over a trade port but a third one would boost less and therefore you would choose a trade port?
Attention is also a resource so if you have to give this matter attention it should also be rewarding.

p.s. i am not trying to bring you down on what you say eventough i sound like i do.
I really need people like you to help me find peace with the current refinery system and love to discuss it further.

[lordcrekit]

All that is so late game though, I kinda feel like it's almost irrelevent. Plus it's extra research, which is really expensive!

[z|A|bik2]

Originally posted by Stylistic Sagittarius NL:

hmm i see your points.

p.s. i am not trying to bring you down on what you say eventough i sound like i do.
I really need people like you to help me find peace with the current refinery system and love to discuss it further.

No worries! You are a nice guy, and I enjoy this conversation. I am opened to be enlightened, and maybe your arguments will make me change my mind. But so far I could only agree with the removing of the 3 refineries limitation. Maybe we should run more numbers to make it more constructive though.

I also agree that refineries do not scale as trade ports do. So maybe placing them earlier in the tech tree would be another interesting "buff". Still the same cost (double of the trade port), but earlier access to economy boosting, is an interesting alternative.

Now since you already brought your numbers, lets look at them. 14.7 credits from 3 trade ports is really alot. It is possible. And it can get even better (since trade ports do scale the longer you play). But this is pretty a late game example. Values you deal mostly is 2 creds per trade port. If you have defeated your direct opponent it is at best 3. If you are an eco, you will probably get up to 4, in case you meet no resistance. (all values without planet upgrades ofc.) But your 14.7 per 3 trade ports is basicly 5 creds per sec. Since you had 3 refineries there (or i understood it wrong?) it means it was without industrial upgrades.
This means you had a very long trade route. Probably on a multi star map? If that is true, we are already playing on different types of maps, since "skilled games" (do not mean to offend) are played on single star maps. Always.

Now 5 creds per trade port is already a very high-endgame number. But what did you get from your 3 refineries? 2.5 crystal+1.8metal=4.3 minerals. Since market prizes are the same for both of them, just jump at different time to different prizes we can look at them as if it was a single resource.

You said that even playing Vasari you normally buy resources. Not sell them. Well, asuming the market is stable you save 4 credits per mineral you do not have to buy with your own credits. 4.3*4=17.2. This much credits per second you save on a stable market, when you do not buy an extra load of them. But what if everyone ends up buying resources? it could end up at 4.3*6=25.8. Or the worst case scenario, everyone, but you is selling them: 4.3*3=12.9

So we have a yield which varies from the market between 12.9 to 25.8. Against 14.7 credits. And once again 5 credits per trade port is a decent late game trade route.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Unless I did some bad math, or am wrong about how the trade port income scales, this does seem like refineries are in a decent niche spot. Not as spammable as trade ports. Also more expensive. But if placed right, they will return you the difference before you hit a giant trade route.

P.s. ofcourse if you have resources excess and credits deficit, you either need the market to be always at 600 per 100, or just get your own trade ports instead of refineries. Cause while selling, even the pirate market will leave you at a disadvantage, compared to numbers where you have a credit excess, instead of minerals.

[Sagi]

Originally posted by lordcrekit:

P.s. ofcourse if you have resources excess and credits deficit, you either need the market to be always at 600 per 100, or just get your own trade ports instead of refineries. Cause while selling, even the pirate market will leave you at a disadvantage, compared to numbers where you have a credit excess, instead of minerals.

I did not get what you are saying here.
1 i tought the prices of minerals where capped at 500 per 100 that it could never exceed that?
2 the pirate market is still something the game could explain more.
I know putting up resources there can be bought by other players giving you the full amount of credits instead of half. But does it change the price? i could not immidiatly see that there was a price changer when resources are placed there. I do know i always set the value pricing to 100% as people will buy alot more then they sell, everything you put to sell there will be sold anyway even if other players are undercutting you.
This last mechanic would be used more if players would be more often in a credit shortage over a resource shortage like we see now.

as for the math i just woke up this x-mas morning so i am not going to check it.
The example was indeed with an unupgraded planet and my trade route was 8 planets long so not that very long either and certainly not with distant stars, i don't like big maps as they make the game unnescecary dragging on for to long. some drastic end-game techn should make it easier and faster to capture planets but that's another topic.

what i also don't really get is why the industry specialization is affecting trade ports and not refineries?!
-refeneries and shipyards are much more industry based over trade ports right?
-why would trade ports be more effective when that same measure leaves room for less population? more population would reality based mean more trade income right?

Does not really makes sence to me.
Gameplay wise i do undertsad a bit it now makes the choice from social to industry more interesting. Perhaps industry should boost refineries as well?
another nice touch would be to have each refinery gives a 1% extraction bonus for all mineral extraction.

another question i have for you.
With the current system, why are you so happy with the double cost to build a refinery?

im gonna play another medium map against easy ai to make another example in case i made an error with my previous numbers but i am pretty sure i said them correctly.