What exactly is a De Jure claim?

[Jimmothy Small]

Hey, This game is great and I love it, however I don't really understand what a "De Jure" claim is?
Every time I go to declare war on someone I can either "Claim -province-" or "De Jure Claim -province-"
I googled the term but it hasn't been much help, what does it mean?

[Bombastic Pumpernickel]

In crusader kings 2, de jure is sort of a legal right to claim

part of the benefit of creating/owning a ducal/king/emperor title is that if somebody who is not your vassal is holding one of the counties belonging to that title (look for the de jure checkbox when you open the county menu), you have the CB to declare war and claim it. If one of your vassals holds a title and someone outside your realm owns one of the de jure counties, you can also claim it for the vassal holding the title.

Just remember to read the fine print for "if you win."In some cases you outright seize the county, but other times the current holder is simply transferred to you (or your vassal) as a vassal of the title holder.

[prince_of_arfon]

So basically, all realms from duchies up through empires have boundaries that are generally understood to exist historically or culturally, regardless of whether they do politically any more. That's how I understand "de jure" in the game. From the "old time laws," in a manner of speaking. I haven't done enough research to know if this is how it worked historically, but this is how it seems to operate in the game. If you're the king of England, then Wales is not "de jure" part of your realm because Wales was a separate region, never (before the Middle Ages) ruled by anyone who was also the titular ruler of England. But the duchy of Oxford is in the region known as England, so that even if the Duke of Oxford has won his independence and doesn't owe allegiance to you, his land is still "de jure" part of your kingdom and you can declare war on him in the name of fully reuniting/integrating the whole "natural" kingdom of England.

If the causus belli option merely says "Claim -province-..." then it probably has a picture of a person next to it, which means you would be pressing that person's claim on the title. Be careful with these: it's possible to win a war for someone's claim that only succeeds in making them a lord independent of you (but friendly to you because of your help)! However, if they are of your dynasty, or are already a landed vassal in your realm or part of a family landed in your realm, then they are likely to become your vassal when they take over the land you win for them.

Sorry for being rather long-winded, but I hope that helps!

[sounds like a wooosh]

As a being a ruler of a medival europian setting you have in this game a right to be a ruler and to rule some lands – and others not.

I did not find a good explanation for it by myself. Just imagine that "the society" or "your religion" gives you rights and limits them.

This does fit at least for the attitude of European aristocracy – and also in a way how christians went into something like the crusades maybe…

As you see … you are able to bribe and tweek your luck of being a born ruler and enhance heritage…

[Ubiquitous]

It is helpful to understand the distinction between the terms "de facto" and "de jure".

In law, de jure refers to things that are true by law or by legal rights (but not necessarily in practice). De facto refers to things that are true in practice (but not necessarilly in law).

For example, the US has no de jure (i.e. legal) national language, but English is the de facto (i.e. actual, practical) language of the US. For an example that runs the other way, the queen of England is the de jure head of the British armed forces, but not its de facto head because it is prime minister that actually exercises this responsibility.

Now, imagine you are king of Ireland, but Ulster in the north is controlled by an Englishman. You can argue that since you are the king of Ireland, the north of the country is rightfully (de jure) yours, even though the English king is its de facto ruler. That argument would be the basis for a de jure claim in which you go to war to restore Ulster to its rightful owner, the king of Ireland (i.e. you).

[FEAR]

Originally posted by prince_of_arfon:

So basically, all realms from duchies up through empires have boundaries that are generally understood to exist historically or culturally, regardless of whether they do politically any more. That's how I understand "de jure" in the game. From the "old time laws," in a manner of speaking. I haven't done enough research to know if this is how it worked historically, but this is how it seems to operate in the game. If you're the king of England, then Wales is not "de jure" part of your realm because Wales was a separate region, never (before the Middle Ages) ruled by anyone who was also the titular ruler of England. But the duchy of Oxford is in the region known as England, so that even if the Duke of Oxford has won his independence and doesn't owe allegiance to you, his land is still "de jure" part of your kingdom and you can declare war on him in the name of fully reuniting/integrating the whole "natural" kingdom of England.

If the causus belli option merely says "Claim -province-..." then it probably has a picture of a person next to it, which means you would be pressing that person's claim on the title. Be careful with these: it's possible to win a war for someone's claim that only succeeds in making them a lord independent of you (but friendly to you because of your help)! However, if they are of your dynasty, or are already a landed vassal in your realm or part of a family landed in your realm, then they are likely to become your vassal when they take over the land you win for them.

Sorry for being rather long-winded, but I hope that helps!

anywhere from county you mean?

[prince_of_arfon]

Originally posted by andrewgr88:

anywhere from county you mean?

I'm not sure what your question is. You can press a vassal's claim on another county, yes, so long as it is outside of your realm, and also for claims on duchies and kings (and probably empires too).

Originally posted by Ubiquitous:

It is helpful to understand the distinction between the terms "de facto" and "de jure".

In law, de jure refers to things that are true by law or by legal rights (but not necessarily in practice). De facto refers to things that are true in practice (but not necessarilly in law).

For example, the US has no de jure (i.e. legal) national language, but English is the de facto (i.e. actual, practical) language of the US. For an example that runs the other way, the queen of England is the de jure head of the British armed forces, but not its de facto head because it is prime minister that actually exercises this responsibility.

Now, imagine you are king of Ireland, but Ulster in the north is controlled by an Englishman. You can argue that since you are the king of Ireland, the north of the country is rightfully (de jure) yours, even though the English king is its de facto ruler. That argument would be the basis for a de jure claim in which you go to war to restore Ulster to its rightful owner, the king of Ireland (i.e. you).

Excellent summation!

[Vichi]

Hello, I know this is an old threat, but, I get a message saying I can do a claim on the county by iure, but how do I actually do that claim?

[Enzo Gorlami]

BEWARETH THE GREAT NECROMANCER

MANY A NECROMANCER ARE CAPABLE OF RESSURECTING YEAR DECEASED THREADS

BUT THIS ONE IS MIGHTY

NEAR EFFORTLESSLY HE ROSE A THREAD FROM THE GRAVE OF 4 YEARS

THIS IS A TRUE VULGAR DISPLAY OF POWER WHICH YOU MAY ONLY HOPE TO WITNESS ONCE IN A MORTAL LIFETIME.

ALL HAIL THE NECROMANCER AND PRAY FOR FORGIVENESS BEFORE HIM AS WE OUR AT HIS GREATEST MERCY!

[Sandvich]

Originally posted by Vichi-CR Gamers Hub:

Hello, I know this is an old threat, but, I get a message saying I can do a claim on the county by iure, but how do I actually do that claim?

Is it a weak claim? Or a strong claim? Strong claims can be used at any time, whereas weak claims need specific conditions. This ck2 wiki page might be useful to you. https://ck2.paradoxwikis.com/Claims

[Vichi]

Originally posted by Sandvich:

Originally posted by Vichi-CR Gamers Hub:

Hello, I know this is an old threat, but, I get a message saying I can do a claim on the county by iure, but how do I actually do that claim?

Is it a weak claim? Or a strong claim? Strong claims can be used at any time, whereas weak claims need specific conditions. This ck2 wiki page might be useful to you. https://ck2.paradoxwikis.com/Claims

This is a picture, and I the land in question is highligted in yellow

http://steamcommunity.com/id/vichilino/screenshots/

[Sandvich]

Originally posted by Vichi-CR Gamers Hub:

Originally posted by Sandvich:

Is it a weak claim? Or a strong claim? Strong claims can be used at any time, whereas weak claims need specific conditions. This ck2 wiki page might be useful to you. https://ck2.paradoxwikis.com/Claims

This is a picture, and I the land in question is highligted in yellow

http://steamcommunity.com/id/vichilino/screenshots/

Go to whoever owns that county, right click on them, click declare war, then select the county you want.

[Vichi]

Originally posted by Sandvich:

Originally posted by Vichi-CR Gamers Hub:

This is a picture, and I the land in question is highligted in yellow

http://steamcommunity.com/id/vichilino/screenshots/

Go to whoever owns that county, right click on them, click declare war, then select the county you want.

Thanks!

[ZombieHunter]

Remember that if you keep a de-facto holding for 100 years, even though it is not dejure, it becomes dejure in the game.

[Vichi]

Originally posted by ZombieHunter:

Remember that if you keep a de-facto holding for 100 years, even though it is not dejure, it becomes dejure in the game.

The problem I have now, is that, after declaring war, and winning the war, the person who was ruling the land, became my vasal, which is okay. But! After she died, the land went over another person! And it no longer belongs to me.

How can I make that land, to become mine, after the person ruling it (my vasal) passes away?

[ZombieHunter]

Originally posted by Vichi-CR Gamers Hub:

Originally posted by ZombieHunter:

Remember that if you keep a de-facto holding for 100 years, even though it is not dejure, it becomes dejure in the game.

The problem I have now, is that, after declaring war, and winning the war, the person who was ruling the land, became my vasal, which is okay. But! After she died, the land went over another person! And it no longer belongs to me.

How can I make that land, to become mine, after the person ruling it (my vasal) passes away?

You can prevent lands from leaving your realm through inheritance via laws. But since this already happened in your game you cannot do this. However, because the land was under your rule in the first place before the inheritance took place you should be able to either press dejure claims over that land or you should have some type of claim on that land. Press it in war and win and it is yours. Then if it is part of a duchy, create the duchy and put a count who really likes you in charge of it. Then you can work on passing the law that no lands can leave your realm through inheritance.

If you want to rule without duchy titles for a bit then hang on to the land and keep it as part of your demesne.