Best retinue composition against horse archers ?

[Pippin123]

Theoretically, (and without switching to greek culture to get cataphracts), what's the most efficient army composition to minimize casualties against the Mongol hordes (and their Horse archers tactics)

I managed to neuter the Ilkhanate, but losses were horrendous, and I had to rely on mercenaries with horse archers too ( Mameluks, etc)

[Langkard]

This is going to be long, so bear with me:

The reason that the Mongols (and the other horse archer cultures) are so tough is that they are amazingly strong in the skirmish phase of combat. So strong, that they often never even get to the melee phase, skipping straight to pursuit because they destroyed their foes. Infantry armies are simply chewed to pieces. Cavalry too.

The answer to the Mongols is to also be strong in the skirmish phase and then to use terrain (mountaints/hills and river crossings) to your advantage as well as the proper general (defender, narrow flanks, flanker, etc. when being attacked).

Use your regular troops to whittle down the Mongols in a fighting retreats across rivers and into mountains and hills. Anatolia is ideal for taking out the Mongols. If your forces are less than theirs, they will chase you into the killing zone.

Once you get their army sizes reduced, it's time to use your retinue and mercenaries while your regular army replenishes. You did well using the horse archer mercs. That is one good idea.

For retinues, your choices are somewhat limited. Infantry sucks versus horse archer + cavalry. If you are playing an infantry retinue culture (Germanic, etc.), then you are going to feel the pain.

You can mitigate the pain by using a mix of generic retinues: skirmisher + light skirmisher in a 2:1 ratio of 2 skirmisher units for every light. This will give you 38% light infantry, 9% heavy infantry and 53% archers.

I'll explain the above numbers. The light infantry are only there to keep the heavy infantry number below 10% because if the heavy infantry is >10% then the "feint" combat tactic will fire which negates the advantage of having archers. And the archer number is just below 60%, because 60% or more triggers the "undefended flank" tactic for the enemy. Between 50% and 59% archers and <10% HI means that volley will fire almost 100% of the time in the skirmish phase. Volley is what you want to happen, and you will probably not even enter melee phase before the battle is over.

You can vastly increase the effectiveness of your archers by having a Welsh or English culture general leading the flanks. Then the volley becomes massive volley and you will literally shred your opponents in skirmish. That is, however, easier said than done. Even better if your own culture is English or Welsh, because then you can skip the all generic retinue and use longbow + skirmish instead and simply devastate your opponents all the time, including the Mongols.

If you are Greek, then you have cataphracts, which is like steppe horse archers but with heavier cavalry. That is another option, but it is not a great one because cataphracts were nerfed in the latest DLC.

Since most people aren't playing as Welsh/English/Greek or are not able institute a Welsh/English general breeding program, your only other decent option is to go generic defense retinue (pikes + archers) plus skirmish (archers + heavy infantry). It is not as good as the above, but it can work. Especially if you can get the emeny to attack you in a forest terrain and trigger the pikes' "stand fast" tactic. Again, better if you have an English or Welsh general. The pikes will help when you get out of skirmish and into melee, against the Mongol cavalry.

Most of the above comes from the following Optimum Retinue Calculations:

http://www.reddit.com/r/CrusaderKings/comments/2jbah5/optimum_retinue_calculations_in_charlemagne

[Surimi]

I'm going to throw it out there and say camels.

Camels and horse arhcers are actually very similar in terms of how they work. Camels are tougher and slightly better in the melee phase, while horse archers are more fragile but will inflict more casualties when the enemy breaks. Horse archers rely heavily on swarm tactics, which are unique to them, while camels have access to all the same tactics as light cavalry. Theoretically, both have similar damage bonuses.

However, light cavalry tactics have an affinity with swarm tactics, increasing the effectiveness when facing enemies using swarm tactics. This means in a straight up fight camels will usually beat horse archers hands down, despite being very similar.

Theoretically, the same is true of light cavalry. However, light cavalry are not nearly as effective as camels in the skirmish phase, and thus may have problems. As it is, I would say camels are the outright best. Given how rare camels are, however, light cavalry seem likely to be the best bet for most armies.

One thing to bear in mind is that swarm tactics actually have an affinity versus volley tactics, so archers are considerably less effective against horse archers than they might seem.

[Pippin123]

Thanks! I see that I need a better understanding of combat tactics, something I more or less always neglected until now . Only knew "don't put a bad general, in charge, he will actively ficks things up"

I got camels, so I'll give it a try (on a separate save, in case it all goes to hell)