Vice royalties yay, or nay?

[SPAMbuca]

Let's talk about some in depth strategy. Vice royalties in this case. Do you think they are worth the trouble or not? I personally don't think so even though I know a lot of experienced players like them. Yet, I ask why.

Known disadvantages of vice royalties:
- the constant popularity hit as vassals don't like it.
- the constant workload it gives to keep handing out vice royal titles. The times I've started as the Byzantine Empire, I was constantly flooded with titles that returned to me.
- It reduces your vassal limit. If you're not careful, it's easy to pass over the vassal limit.

Known advantages:
- You can pick the vassals being right under you. Prevents ambitious or other unlikeable vassals coming to power.
- The biggest advantage: the gratefulness of each vassal as they receive a title from you.

Yet, I wish to discuss the importance of the last factor a lot of players deem very, very highly. My main point mainly comes down to this: If you're experienced in CK II, there are usually only 2 situations in which you are in relatively vulnerable from inside the realm.
* You just lost a war and because you lost most of your men, factions are now relatively strong and might be pressed by a faction. Can be prevented of course by not losing a war, or by bribing/managing a few vassals.
* Succession. You just got a new character and it might not be ready to rule yet. Handing out titles would be a good way to keep these people happy.

YET! Unless you have titles to hand out the very moment your previous ruler died, I don't think it helps much. Your previous ruler might just have handed out 3 vice royal titles; these bonusses are instantly forgotten the moment said character dies. Statistically speaking, some titles might return to you soon to be handed out again, but it's usually not enough to prevent most faction members/vassals to stand up to you. I personally think in the situation in which about 33/66% of your vassals has a negative or barely positive opinion of you, the constant opinion on vice royalties does more harm than vice royalties do good.

Opinions?

[Nehebsis]

Viceroyalties are amazing. Duchy level is overkill though as it has a huge impact on direct vassal limit, Kingdom Viceroyalties is perfect for a large Empire, enact Imperial administartion of course.

Viceroyalties make it easier to fix trouble AI might cause. Upon the viceroy's death you get the title back. AI are the worse at vassal managment and keeping their Duchies structured.

Originally posted by SPAMbuca:

- the constant popularity hit as vassals don't like it.

It's true that feudal vassals don't like Viceroyalties. But if all of your direct vassals are Viceroys what's the problem? They won't get an opinion penalty. Sure, your direct Barons will have a opinion penalty but it's not like they will cause trouble.

Originally posted by SPAMbuca:

- the constant workload it gives to keep handing out vice royal titles. The times I've started as the Byzantine Empire, I was constantly flooded with titles that returned to me.

Yes, that's because the Byzantine has Duchy Viceroyalties. If you have a large Empire Kingdom viceroyalties is better and less work. Besides this way you get to undo the AI's crap easier, less title revokation needed.

Originally posted by SPAMbuca:

- It reduces your vassal limit. If you're not careful, it's easy to pass over the vassal limit.

Not exactly true. There's the Imperial Administration you can enact that will give you +25 vassal limit. You need to have either Duchy or Kingdom Viceroyalty to enact it. So if you are on Kingdoms you gain a net +15 vassal limit.

Originally posted by SPAMbuca:

Unless you have titles to hand out the very moment your previous ruler died, I don't think it helps much... Statistically speaking, some titles might return to you soon to be handed out again, but it's usually not enough to prevent most faction members/vassals to stand up to you...

Don't get your point. Look at it this way:

If your feudal vassal dies his heir won't like you for the land you gave his father. You'll have to make him like you by giving either gold, an honorary title or giving even more land (which his son will again not like you more for)...

If your vassal is a Viceroy, he dies. His son or anyone else will love you greatly for that Viceroyal Duchy/Kingdom you just handed to him. It's the best way to keep every consecutive generation of vassals happy with you. If that is not enough, there are still the conventional ways to bribe them.

Another thing I'de like to point out. Is really easy to have a great Council with Viceroyalties as you can grant titles to the talented.

Needles to say. I'm pro viceroyalties

[Onlysane1]

Solution: Give your heir 3 or 4 kingdom viceroyalties all to himself. Then you have a few titles to give out to unhappy vassals when he takes the throne.

I understand how it's harder work to manage all the titles coming back to you, but it seems to be worth it. All my exarch (king viceroy) vassals are always happy, except maybe the first couple of years after succession. I've even been doubling up on the titles as I approach my vassal limit.

My main issue is that they are always having rebellions, which itself artificially inflates your vassal count, and makes you have to keep on having to re-assign duchies to kingdoms. Would I do it if I weren't playing the byzantines, who start with it? Maybe, maybe not. On a smaller empire where I don't have 40 kings under me, probably. After my current game if I have a ton of vassals to deal with, I might try to tough it out with kingdom titles.

[SPAMbuca]

To Falk0: My main point is that the main reason to have vice royalties enabled is to prevent issues with your vassals and making your vassals like you more in general. Yet, my point is that the only times vassal opinion will be critical, will be after a major war or after succession. Especially in the last situation, your earlier bonusses are nullified where it's not possible to hog up some titles for a longer period of time.

I do agree that vice royal duchies aren't needed. I gave away a few vice royal kingdom titles, but it never appealed to me. Especially when I became so big that it became too regular an event to hand them out again.

I never have a problem having great/good counsils too; if needed I look for them in the tabs and recruit them to my court.


To Jvann: I don't ever give my heir titles. Both because he can get wounded/maimed/stressed/pick up any undesirable traits as a ruler, but also because I can't easily educate his heir as well. Any character destined to sit on the throne will be educated by my to ensure I'll always have a good ruler. I've also seen landed heirs pick up new, undesirable wifes. Later, it's possible to divorce of course or to kill, but in the meantime, it's possible you'll already have a weak/harelip/clubfooted or worse grand child which perhaps picks up craven/arbitrary/cruel in the meantime.


In general, my point is that it's perfectly possible or rather easy actually to be adored by your vassals in most times, except after succession. If you do things right, the only times you might be in trouble will be when you get in a regency.

[Nehebsis]

Originally posted by SPAMbuca:

My main point is that the main reason to have vice royalties enabled is to prevent issues with your vassals...

It's only there to emulate large Empire's need for bureaucratic governing, making it easier to rule a bigger nation (hence the +15 vassal limit from Imperial Administration). But yes, it makes it easier to correct AI incompetence.

Originally posted by SPAMbuca:

Especially in the last situation, your earlier bonusses are nullified where it's not possible to hog up some titles for a longer period of time.

How is that different from when you give people titles the regular way?! Wether a title was granted or given as a viceroyalty, upon succesion you'll lose the granted title opinion bonus. In both cases the result is the same. So I don't see why you feel the need to bring this up.

The difference lies in how many times you will have the granted title opinion bonus. With feudal vassals; ONCE. The guy that you grant land to will be overjoyed, his offspring won't give a ♥♥♥♥. With Viceroyalty you get to grant the title over and over again, every generation, almost every vassal will have the granted title opinion bonus at one point.

[Lord Nosson]

So is it true the AI doesnt handle viceroyalties well? I am planning on a revival of rome game and I would have all the dukes in greece be viceroyals, but have all the other dukes in other kingdoms be feudal, and just hand out the kingdom viceroyal.

Is this a solid plan?

[SPAMbuca]

It's not Falk0, which is why I suggested that vice royal titles won't help you in your time of need, while you do get a constant penalty with your feudal vassals etc. I'm saying that bonus is mostly relevant after succession which isn't a lot of help.

Just the ducal titles in Greece and Anatolia will drive you mad soon I think. It's my experience at least.

[Nehebsis]

Originally posted by Lord Nosson:

So is it true the AI doesnt handle viceroyalties well?

No, AI doesn't handle viceroyalties better or worse then generic granted titles. It's just easier to fix stuff. For example if a Duchess and a Duke marry their first born will have two Duchies. If they were Viceroy and Vicereine their son won't get the two Viceroyal Duchies, they'll go back to you.

Originally posted by Lord Nosson:

Is this a solid plan?

No. You want either to have all vassals be Viceroy Dukes or all vassals be Viceroy Kings (ruling over feudal Dukes). You get a -2 opinion penalty with direct feudal vassals for every Viceroy you appoint. If you have no direct feudal vassals, only Viceroy vassals, there's no problem ^^'

Originally posted by SPAMbuca:

It's not Falk0, which is why I suggested that vice royal titles won't help you in your time of need

I persist, There's no point in this argument. How is this different form the feudal adinistration? It's not. Feudal or Viceroyalties, neither won't help if you don't have titles to give away in time of need.

Originally posted by SPAMbuca:

... while you do get a constant penalty with your feudal vassals etc.

I repeat, yes you will get a -2 opinion penalty with all feudal vassals for each Viceroy title you hand out.. BUT if you have no feudal vassals, if you ONLY have Viceroyal titles this is a non-issue!

Originally posted by SPAMbuca:

Just the ducal titles in Greece and Anatolia will drive you mad soon I think. It's my experience at least.

As I said, Viceroyal Duchies is overkill and annoying. Make regular feudal vassal dukes with a Viceroy King ruling over them. Problem solved. No massive spam, less direct vassals, no direct feudal vassals.

I am running out of ways to explain this to you. I have extensive experience with Imperial administration and Viceroyalties. Imperial administration/Viceroyalties is superior to feudal, while this is only my opinion and judgement I feel there are many reasons why it is obvious that it is the better choice to rule a large Empire.

But don't take my word for it. Try it, as I said conquer a lot of land, make all duchy-tier vassals feudal and create kingdom-tier Viceroys to rule over them. Make sure to have as many Viceroy Kings as vassals and as few feudal Duke vassals as possible.

[Taiwan Number One]

Yay for certain though it baffles me why they added viceroyalties seeing as they undermine the main point of Charlemagne which was empire balancing.

[Panamarc]

I love viceroyalties

I am currently playing a quite long ironman game (Bretagne custom empire) and I love viceroyalties. You have a certain hit with powerful vassals OK but it allows you to:

- Choose who in the dejure territory of each kingdom will be your king. Granting them a viceroyalty converts them into fans. Need cash? Name a great steward. Need troops? Name a fighter. Need expansion? Name an ambitious, he will expand for you. Need a great concillor? Name wuho best fits you in this territory. Old and preparing the way to your heir? Name an old guy.
- Get rid of the negative opinion of the guys under them. Customizable each time, for your best interest.
- Get tons of levies where you want. Granting the possible kings some counties abroad will allow you to rais, for instance, 15 k andalusian troops in Norway.
- Have your kings busy with inter dejure wars. While they are fighting each other they are not fighting you.
- Solve problems. When vice royalties return to you, if you are old you can revoke some titles, get the tyrant hit, grant the viceroyalty and die in peace.
- Limit the number of vassals. Get over the limit? Pass some vassalage to a vice-king. He will love you for that.

Problem are that they create duchies, which they pass over to their heirs, adding some unwanted voters to electoral succession.

Just take care to never allow them to get a hold on the required territory to create an empire. If you are always much stronger than them, they will not rebel. When title goes back to you, grant counties in excess to another viceroyalty and et them fight over them a couple of generations.

I am managing a huge empire with viceroyalties, and I have no problem with vassals: no factions, no revolt (except occasional peasants and religious suicidal fools). I really like them very much. Sometimes I include a non-viceroyal kingdom, landing a claimant and pressing claim. Those kingdoms dont revert to me. Even though, the best way to get your kings vassals happy is to press their claims. So give them claims, marry them to claim people you invited, and they will all love you when you press their claims (which will enlarge your empire btw).

Some problem can arise at election moment, when you have some guys even at 100 love, not endorsing your chosen heir. Then just wage a holy war, get hold on a few churches, and give them to their candidates. Problem solved :-)

You just have to be at all times, the stronger guy in the block. Take time to raise your retinues to absurds levels, level up your tech and holdings, keep best counties for you. Right now I am doing just the reverse of what is advised: I have counties all over the map. But my capital, Nantes, is the best in the world. To be true, now (ending 13th century), I rarely raise my own levies. When religious wars, I levy Temple and Hospitalers for free. Then I levy my vicekings armies while sending them my chancellor, to mass and hurry assault holdings. Next war, I change the sollicitated king, so they are basically happy at all times.

As a conclusion, I love viceroyalties. The popularity hit you get is counterbalanced by the huge boost you get from them when they are granted the viceroyalty.

[Sergent H]

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=679425049

Viceroyalties is great. I don't really play with viceduke
+ Viceroy likes you a lot, as said
+ Viceroy prevent faction with their dukes de Jure
+ Viceroy become your only direct vassal instead of 5-6 dukes, so it increase your vassal limits
+ Viceroy can do conquest for your empire for so little threat for you
+ Viceroy can handle 2 duke titles (to not get malus opinion) so they can not always keep conquest/tiltes they had when they were duke
+ Viceroyalty come back to you, so you manage balance power on your empire

- (-2) opinions with others vassal...?

I started this game as Frioul duke, catholic lombard duke, in 769 and planning to restores roman empire. I can't imagine without viceroy; i would have too much duke to control and so much rebellions.