Frankish culture - Old Gods Bookmark

[Ulving]

DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONE!

[Skyte100]

Because it was no longer culturally dominant. It existed, yes, but it was dying. And old gods starts in mid 9th century. You really expect them to have any majority communities left within a generation of dying off?

[Skyte100]

No. no....it doesnt. The 9th century is the year 801-900. Please note that it is the year 2015, but it is the 21st century.

[Skyte100]

But the reason the lombards have cultural regions still is because they survived until the 11th century. Beneveto, Calerno, and Capua were Lombard states, which survived for a long time before they were snuffed out.

The franks didnt have that after the Carolingian dynasty. All frankish states became culturally distinct from each other. And the frankish language stopped existing in the 6th century when the dialects drifted towards French, German, and Dutch. When you talk about the Frankish language at that time, it doesnt exist as a unified language anymore.

[Skyte100]

Originally posted by Styrbjörn:

Originally posted by skyte100:

But the reason the lombards have cultural regions still is because they survived until the 11th century. Beneveto, Calerno, and Capua were Lombard states, which survived for a long time before they were snuffed out.

The franks didnt have that after the Carolingian dynasty. All frankish states became culturally distinct from each other. And the frankish language stopped existing in the 6th century when the dialects drifted towards French, German, and Dutch. When you talk about the Frankish language at that time, it doesnt exist as a unified language anymore.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankish_language
France, Western Germany
Era 5th to the 9th century
Language family
Indo-European
Germanic
West Germanic
Frankish / Old Franconian

We gonna do it that way then?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks#Language
By the 6th century, the Franks no longer spoke the same language.

After the 6th century, two modern languages developed, German (where the consonant shift occurred) and Dutch (where the consonant shift remained absent). At the end of the Proto-Germanic period, the language must have been divided into dialects, including Frankish, or Franconian, as well as the predecessors of Frisian and Saxon. These dialects persisted through the evolution of German and Dutch.

[Skyte100]

Originally posted by Styrbjörn:

Originally posted by skyte100:

But the reason the lombards have cultural regions still is because they survived until the 11th century. Beneveto, Calerno, and Capua were Lombard states, which survived for a long time before they were snuffed out.

The franks didnt have that after the Carolingian dynasty. All frankish states became culturally distinct from each other. And the frankish language stopped existing in the 6th century when the dialects drifted towards French, German, and Dutch. When you talk about the Frankish language at that time, it doesnt exist as a unified language anymore.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankish_language
France, Western Germany
Era 5th to the 9th century
Language family
Indo-European
Germanic
West Germanic
Frankish / Old Franconian
I think you should look up Franconian, it is spoken as of now, closest thing to Frankish there is...

But, its not Frankish. Its Franconian. The language imploded and that was one of the resulting languages.

[Skyte100]

Originally posted by Styrbjörn:

Originally posted by skyte100:

We gonna do it that way then?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks#Language
By the 6th century, the Franks no longer spoke the same language.

After the 6th century, two modern languages developed, German (where the consonant shift occurred) and Dutch (where the consonant shift remained absent). At the end of the Proto-Germanic period, the language must have been divided into dialects, including Frankish, or Franconian, as well as the predecessors of Frisian and Saxon. These dialects persisted through the evolution of German and Dutch.

Languages change over time, that the Franks over by the German border would be German-fied was only a matter of time. The same can be said with Lombardic, with your logic it would have been "extinct" after a century or two post-pone from their invasion , because they were Latinised likewise as the Franks in modern France.
But no, they apparently "survived" until the 13th century.

Not culturally dominant. And thats what the culture mapmope looks at, cultural dominance.

[Skyte100]

Originally posted by Styrbjörn:

Originally posted by skyte100:

Not culturally dominant.

Neither were the Lombards. :)

They were in the listed states until they were taken over. Capua had lombard rulers until 1057. Salerno until 1077. Benevento until 1050. After which point they were ruled by another culture and were no longer dominant.

[Crocodylus Pontifex]

Originally posted by skyte100:

Originally posted by Styrbjörn:

Languages change over time, that the Franks over by the German border would be German-fied was only a matter of time. The same can be said with Lombardic, with your logic it would have been "extinct" after a century or two post-pone from their invasion , because they were Latinised likewise as the Franks in modern France.
But no, they apparently "survived" until the 13th century.

Not culturally dominant. And thats what the culture mapmope looks at, cultural dominance.

In 842 the predominant language in the Court of King 'Ludwig, dem Deutschen' (whom you might know as Louis the German) was old frankish. (By the way in german both, early medieval language and the modern dialect, are known as "Fränkisch", and the people speaking them as "Franken") Louis ruled until 876. So in 867, old Gods start date, old frankish was still the predominant culture in large parts of modern day Germany. Especially so since there was no distinct 'diutisk' (early form of 'deutsch' = german) culture at the time, the term mearly implied that someone spoke a germanic, not romanized language. (So Ludwig ruled over most of the people that spoke a germanic language, but not the western franks whose version of the language had become romanized during the past decades and could no longer be understood by the eastern franks) Long story short: In 867 there still was a distinct frankish culture very closely related to the one from 50-60 years ago (or one grandfather ago if you like since Louis was a grandson of Charlemagne). And if you ask people in modern day franconia, or as we say over here 'Franken' (Yes, the same term is applied to both the people and the land, as it is customary with old tribal lands, at least over here), their dialect still is a distinct one and so is their culture (If you don't want an angry 2 hour rant on how they are still a culturally distinct group of people don't ever make the mistake of mixing them up with bavarians, i still rue the day i did)

[Skyte100]

Originally posted by Crocodylus Pontifex:

Originally posted by skyte100:

Not culturally dominant. And thats what the culture mapmope looks at, cultural dominance.

In 842 the predominant language in the Court of King 'Ludwig, dem Deutschen' (whom you might know as Louis the German) was old frankish. (By the way in german both, early medieval language and the modern dialect, are known as "Fränkisch", and the people speaking them as "Franken") Louis ruled until 876. So in 867, old Gods start date, old frankish was still the predominant culture in large parts of modern day Germany. Especially so since there was no distinct 'diutisk' (early form of 'deutsch' = german) culture at the time, the term mearly implied that someone spoke a germanic, not romanized language. (So Ludwig ruled over most of the people that spoke a germanic language, but not the western franks whose version of the language had become romanized during the past decades and could no longer be understood by the eastern franks) Long story short: In 867 there still was a distinct frankish culture very closely related to the one from 50-60 years ago (or one grandfather ago if you like since Louis was a grandson of Charlemagne). And if you ask people in modern day franconia, or as we say over here 'Franken' (Yes, the same term is applied to both the people and the land, as it is customary with old tribal lands, at least over here), their dialect still is a distinct one and so is their culture (If you don't want an angry 2 hour rant on how they are still a culturally distinct group of people don't ever make the mistake of mixing them up with bavarians, i still rue the day i did)

Never said they aren't distinct. Just that they aren't the original Franks. They are direct descendents of them.

Also we settled this. Someone lock the thread or something.

[Crocodylus Pontifex]

Originally posted by skyte100:

Never said they aren't distinct. Just that they aren't the original Franks. They are direct descendents of them.

Also we settled this. Someone lock the thread or something.

It appears that everyone but you removed their comments so it was kind of hard to see what's been settled and what not.

However, back in 867 they still were the 'original' franks. As mentioned above, the predominant language in Ludwig's domain and in Karl's empire (Karl = Charlemagne) were related to an extent where they were indistinguishable. And also already mentioned, the culture "german" that is supposed to represent diutisk in the 867 start date did not exist in the way that the game implies. Also i never said that you said that they weren't distinct. I merely pointed out that your conclusion of there being no more 'original', as you put it, franks being in around 867, or them being a insignificant cultural minority is simply wrong.

[Ulving]

Originally posted by Crocodylus Pontifex:

Originally posted by skyte100:

Never said they aren't distinct. Just that they aren't the original Franks. They are direct descendents of them.

Also we settled this. Someone lock the thread or something.

It appears that everyone but you removed their comments so it was kind of hard to see what's been settled and what not.

However, back in 867 they still were the 'original' franks. As mentioned above, the predominant language in Ludwig's domain and in Karl's empire (Karl = Charlemagne) were related to an extent where they were indistinguishable. And also already mentioned, the culture "german" that is supposed to represent diutisk in the 867 start date did not exist in the way that the game implies. Also i never said that you said that they weren't distinct. I merely pointed out that your conclusion of there being no more 'original', as you put it, franks being in around 867, or them being a insignificant cultural minority is simply wrong.

I agree, seems kind of impossible to have a culture "extinct" (if you know what I mean) over such a relativetly short time, likewise with Saxon, it's just just gone, poof.

[Skyte100]

Originally posted by Crocodylus Pontifex:

Originally posted by skyte100:

Never said they aren't distinct. Just that they aren't the original Franks. They are direct descendents of them.

Also we settled this. Someone lock the thread or something.

It appears that everyone but you removed their comments so it was kind of hard to see what's been settled and what not.

However, back in 867 they still were the 'original' franks. As mentioned above, the predominant language in Ludwig's domain and in Karl's empire (Karl = Charlemagne) were related to an extent where they were indistinguishable. And also already mentioned, the culture "german" that is supposed to represent diutisk in the 867 start date did not exist in the way that the game implies. Also i never said that you said that they weren't distinct. I merely pointed out that your conclusion of there being no more 'original', as you put it, franks being in around 867, or them being a insignificant cultural minority is simply wrong.

I'm annoyed at the "insignificant" bit. Do not put words in my mouth.

A dominant culture is either the De Facto majority, or a cultural minority that has far more power than the majority does. There is nothing "insignificant" about people.

Also, Saxon is due to a gameplay mechanic. "German" would represent the collective of the germanic states various cultures. Saxon flips to German only if it joins the Frankish empire. If it stays independent it, Saxon remains distinct from the collection of Germanic cultures.

Lets just agree that its all because of technical limitations and wash our hands of this.

[Ulving]

"Saxon remains distinct from the collection of Germanic cultures."

Firstly, Saxon is West Germanic, just like German and Frankish. Both of those which I pointed out, are only "Central Germanic" in CK2.
There is no Central Germanic subgroup, only West and North, but there were East Germanic languages, but they are waaaaaaay dead. R.I.P.

Secondly, you'd be surprised how much old Saxon is related to old High German. But it makes sense that they would lose their cultural status after foreign occupation, but over such a short time seems rather impossible.

[Crocodylus Pontifex]

It was not my intention to put words into your mouth, so I admit that should have been worded otherwise.

I do however feel the need to point out, that 'insignificant' here would have referred to the culture alone rather than to the people as such and since the significance of a characteristic is not in itself an indication towards the significance of the being or thing possessing said characteristic I never implied that a certain group of people was or could be insignificant.

I agree that we should probably end this here, before it gets out of hand. Let's agree that with more love for details and better mechanics it would have been possible to further differentiate between the various cultures that in the game are summed up as 'german' and that however, be that as it may, the current state of affairs can be described as sufficient.