Too many titles AND vassals

[Jocke]

Hi!

I'm new to CKII, started playing it during the free weekend. I really enjoy the game so far, but I've now found myself in a kind of sticky situation. I haven't been able to find a solution to my problem in the wiki, so I thought I'd try you guys.

After winning a crusade war I was granted the Kingdom of Jerusalem by the pope. Of course my demesne then got too big. I solved this by handing out all titles below duke to various men of my court, and all was well. A while afterwards I noticed that for some reason I was above the limit on both demesne and vassals. I don't know how or why, but somehow it seems the limits for both of these decreased. I did not change chancellor, steward or queen during this time, so does anybody know why this happened? And more importantly, how do I get out of this situation?

I cant just unload a few titles, as this will result in getting more vassals (I tried giving out duke titles, since it says when you do that a couple of your vassals then becomes the new dukes vassals, but for some reason this added one vassal, without subtracting the "lost" ones), and I cant revoke titles as this will yield a larger demesne.

I'd be really grateful for any help!

[Jocke]

I did change my succession laws to primoganiture, does this affect demesne and/or vassal limit?

[Nehebsis]

Glad you enjoy the game so far. There are multipe ways of increasing your vassal limit. Let me some them up for you:

- Your diplo skill increases your vassal limit, so try to increase it and make heir Grey Eminence.
- Lowering or increasing Centralization (Crown law) will increase or decrease vassal limit.
- Consider making giving each Duke two Duchies. This will cut number of vassals in half.
- The higher tier your main title is the more vassal limit you get, so try to create an Empire.
- If you have an Empire create Kingdom-vassals.
- If you have an Empire try to go to Imperial Administration (Crown law).

This is all I could think of right now. Hope it helps.

[Nehebsis]

Originally posted by Jocke:

I did change my succession laws to primoganiture, does this affect demesne and/or vassal limit?

Succesion laws only affect personal domain size.

[Crusanderth]

Thanks Falk0 for explaining to us how to fix demesne/vassal limit.

[Mentos]

I thought stewardship affected your maximum demesne, not diplomacy. That wouldn't make any sense. [Edit: I misread the response. He was correct when he said Diplomacy determines your Vassal Limit]

Falk0's advice is good in some cases but generally offers a large amount of other difficulties that you will end up facing.

For instance, by giving two duchies or more to a single duke you are empowering him, and his heirs with more troops and as a result an easier time rebelling. He no longer has to get support from that second duke because he IS that second duke.

Centralization will increase your demesne limit, but the drawback is that it lowers your vassal limit. So you need to keep a close eye on that when deciding to increase it.

When an Empire, beware of handing out your Kingly titles. An empire generally consists of at least 3 kingdoms. If you hand out two of these, and those two kings decide to declare independence your going to be facing a tough battle. If you choose to hand out your king titles, be careful not to grant them one that has de jure claim over any of your demesne counties.

Regarding gaining new titles; I generally hand out cities and castles to characters whom participated in the war. I will occasionally hold onto a few castles(since you can keep them without it being wrong-type) to hand out to my sons when they come of age. Holding onto these can also be useful in the early stages of the game if your playing as a count because you have more troops to call upon. I hand out counties to good council members, or if I wish to get that county back easily at some point i hand it out to a childless old man(i make sure to marry him to an equally old woman first if possible)

The real solution to the issue in the OP is to transfer vassalage of independent counts to their respective dukes. This reduces your own # of vassals while avoiding the problems caused by super-dukes. It's unlikely that you will find yourself with too many dukes, if you do you may need to lower centralization. You can also give the pope a few bishops.

[Crowsy]

Sorry for being dense but independent counts?

[Lemilys]

If you are a king, If you have any direct vassal counts, find their de jure duke and transfer ownership of the count to them. You should have no direct counts ideally, just dukes. You can see who and what your vassals are under your vassals tab. You don't want counts.

[Thundercracker]

Originally posted by Crowsy:

Sorry for being dense but independent counts?

he means direct vassal counts. you'll want those to be vassals of their dejour duchies.

to "making dukes raised vassals", the duke's are not getting the vassals. in your character sheet, click the vassals tab, and on every duke (or above) mouseover their opinion of you. if you see "wants control of {county X}", tranfer that vassal to him.

if you see "desires control of {county OR duchy Y}", this means you hold the title directly.

usually, then you win a holy war or crusade, it is best to hand out duke titles, and check the box that says "include lower titles". this gives the entire de jour duchy to the new duke, and the duke will go about making new barons and landing new counts.

the thing to remember is that most duchies are three counties. this means most of the time, creating a duke will allow you to lower your vassal number by two.

for jerusalem, i like to land holy orders and make them my vassals. unless the muslems are going through a period of revolt, you'll shortly need them.

[Jocke]

Lord Galvatron: About Jerusalem, do you mean that you let holy orders establish in your lands when they request it, or is there a way to actively give them castles?

[Fellow]

If you are an emperor, Holy orders are willing to swear fealty to you if you offer them vasalization. It might be possible to offer vasalization to them if you are a king although I have never seen it happen.

[Racketeer]

King of Jerusalem can vassalise 3 out of 4 catholic holy orders by decision. So you can create this kingdom and make it your primary title for the decisions to show up if you want that.

And if after transfering direct counts you still have some left and vassal limit still bites, consider giving those counts to the weakest of dukes. Although they are not their de-jure vassals, it really does not matter