Primary Titles do... What Exactly?

[Kust]

So, it's my understanding that changing your Primary title does nothing other than change the color of your lands under the "Independent Realms" overlay. I'm pretty sure that's it, but I just wanted to make sure.

Why I'm asking:
I am the King of Bertangaland (Norse Brittany) and Irland (Norse Ireland). Brittany would normally be my favorite place because it's really awesome historically (and nowadays too). But Bertangaland is not my favorite name. Irland just sounds a lot cooler. I wanted to change my primary title to King of Irland, but wanted to make sure there would be no long-term effects of that.

Thanks in advance to all who reply!

[Lightsong]

I used to think the same thing as you, that primary titles were for cosmetic purposes only. This is not the case. For every title, there are claiments. These claiments all want the title they have a claim for. If you create a title, there aren't any claiments, unless you created one that was destroyed before all the claiments and any posterity that inherited that claim, had died. What then, is the benefit of changing a primary title? Besides the cool colors, it's for security. If you for instance, usurp the Kingdom of England, there are claiments to that title. From courtiers to emperors, there are people who want that Kingdom of England title. Some emperors may even press a courtiers claim. To keep yourself safe, you'd destroy the title. (I just realized in this example a switch of primary title wasn't shown, but the principle is the same, switch primary titles to destroy those titles where there are some big bad claiments out there waiting to take that de-jure land away from you). Hopefully, this made sense. As far as long-term effects, it's ill-advised to hold more than one kingdom before being an emperor simply because succession laws can become screwy and there are more chances of losing one of the two, than if you had an iron fist over one title. There's more as to why, I'm just too lazy to explain more.

[Lightsong]

Oh! I forgot to mention that you can only destroy a title if it's not gavelkind. Now that I think about it, I think that only applies to Kingdoms and Empires. I'm not sure if that rule applies to duchies/counties

[Kust]

Originally posted by Lightsong:

I used to think the same thing as you, that primary titles were for cosmetic purposes only. This is not the case. For every title, there are claiments. These claiments all want the title they have a claim for. If you create a title, there aren't any claiments, unless you created one that was destroyed before all the claiments and any posterity that inherited that claim, had died. What then, is the benefit of changing a primary title? Besides the cool colors, it's for security. If you for instance, usurp the Kingdom of England, there are claiments to that title. From courtiers to emperors, there are people who want that Kingdom of England title. Some emperors may even press a courtiers claim. To keep yourself safe, you'd destroy the title. (I just realized in this example a switch of primary title wasn't shown, but the principle is the same, switch primary titles to destroy those titles where there are some big bad claiments out there waiting to take that de-jure land away from you). Hopefully, this made sense. As far as long-term effects, it's ill-advised to hold more than one kingdom before being an emperor simply because succession laws can become screwy and there are more chances of losing one of the two, than if you had an iron fist over one title. There's more as to why, I'm just too lazy to explain more.

In answer to your last couple paragraphs, I started as the Norse Count of Nantes, Invaded Brittany, and now am going for the Empire of Brittania. The reason I created Ireland is so that I'd have a claim on all of the counties in Ireland, allowing for more rapid expansion.

Thanks, by the way.

[Lightsong]

You're welcome.

[Finnway]

It's not entirely cosmetic.
My character couldn't borrow money from the pope because the Kingdom of France had free invesiture. I switched my primary title from the King of France to the King of Burgundy (which had papal invesiture) and suddenly I could, even though the laws of France had not been changed.
Also, if a Kingdom has gavelkind succession changing your primary title and your capital will change what your primary heir inherits.

[Finnway]

Originally posted by Lightsong:

As far as long-term effects, it's ill-advised to hold more than one kingdom before being an emperor simply because succession laws can become screwy and there are more chances of losing one of the two, than if you had an iron fist over one title.

This is incorrect because you need to hold multiple kingdom titles to found empires, and you cannot vassalize other kings until you reach Emperor rank. Holding multiple Kingdom titles also helps to prevent rebellions because dukes in France cannot support factions in Burgundy, etc. If you have primogeniture sucession holding multple King titles shouldn't be a problem.

[Kust]

Unfortunately, I have elective. However, there are only two dukes. Me, and the vassal with the highest opinion of me.

[Koro]

If there are different laws in your kingdoms it can have a significant impact on the rest of your kingdoms which one you have as a primary.
If one of the kingdoms is gavelkind and the other as primogeniture, having the primogeniture one as the primary means you will loose the gavelkind to the next in line son, while a simple switch will mean loosing none of them.
Also, the rules of your primary kingdom will apply to those titles outside any established kingdom and those titles will slowly become "de jur" of that particular kingdom rather than the other.

[Kust]

I have a new issue. I used to have just Bertangaland and Irland, but lately I've been rapidly expanding using my claims on Galicia, Asturias, Castille, and France. However, when I win, I get the King title, and they all start with Gavelkind so I can't destroy them. I can't change succession laws because I just conquered them and all of the people hate my guts. How do I change this?

[Johann Gambolputty of Ulm]

Originally posted by kkoopman3:

but wanted to make sure there would be no long-term effects of that.

There is a strategic aspect of this decision. Since, as I believe, you're aiming for the emperor, you need to plan your position.

As the Emperor, you'll be able to give kingdom titles. There are some who are against this, as this creates a powerful vassals (if they rebel, things can get difficult); some who support this, since its easier to manage a few big guys instead of a few dozens small, bickering, plotting m.o.r.o.n.s (also, there is a thing about this strong opinion penalty "Wants the X kingdom"). I'm the from the second party.

Next thing, for most situations its best to hold two duchies (three and more incur opinion penalty) with all their counties, preferably if they are next to each one, so you'll get a strong, cohesive demesne. Those are the places you're gonna invest in, develop and care for, and the source of your best troops - your own demesne levy.

Awrite, to connect those two things: since we're gonna give away the kingdoms in our imperial future AND we need two duchies, we cannot have lands in someone's else kingdom, unless we want to constantly provoke the righteous owner of the ducal title. So, you need to plan ahead, choose this heartland of yours, and take the above title as your primary.

Originally posted by kkoopman3:

I have a new issue. /cut!/ How do I change this?

Well, there isn't much left to do. This game can seriously punish for too rapid expansion.
There are few ways you can choose. Both are hard to made in one generation, so just prepare yourself for at least one civil war and need to reclaim the lost kingdom from your brother(s).

1. Go for Ultimogenite or Elective.

Elective is nice thanks to the opinion boost, but then you'd need to have a ducal title in all those kingdoms in question (to have the voice in elections), and that means a HUGE penalty for too many duchies held. Also, it would be pretty risky, to keep your candidate in all kingdoms on top, esp. since the vassals hate you.

Ultimo (at least in those kingdoms where you dont hold any lands) is better to keep all things in order. BUT, since you'll need the Low Crown Authority (and I suppose you're on Minimal), you will need to raise it once - and that means next -30 opinion. So, it would require longer preparations.

So, possibly the best bet will be a mix of those two, with Elective in bigger, yet firmly controled states and Ultimo as the goal in smaller (Asturias, Castille).

Anyway, the solution is about infuriating your vassals one by one enough to force them into rebellion, defeat and imprison them, strip their titles for free and give to somebody new, who's gonna love you for this gift, possibly even up to +100. Then, when you smooth the in-realm relatons enough, either change the succession law or first change the Crown Law, then succession.

2. Go for empire FAST.

Stop the all-out expansion and focus on one theater of war. Decide, where your best chances lie and try to keep your attention there. If your position in Britain is strong - hit it. If you hold almost whole France - go for Francia. If the muslims are weak and divided, drive them out using the holy wars and forge the Hispania.

Either way, after you'll get the Emperor tiara, the problem will vanish, as you'll be able to give away the titles (or the kingdoms will stay in your domain even if your heir will lose the elections).

P.S. Oh, and afterwards don't do the mistake of giving all the kingdoms to your sons, grandsons and nephews. Sure, it looks nice, its good for family score and the kids are gonna love you. But then, when you die, and all the menagerie will get claims on each others title, there will be a helluva show...
Also, they have the tendency to intermarry and inherit the titles between them; playing Britannia long ago, I did the mistake to grant Ireland, expanded Wales and shrunken England (some duchies were incorporated into Wales and Scotland) to my family, only to see all those kingdoms united under single holder in next three generations; as you can imagine, the resulting civil war was painful...

[Kust]

Thanks for that explanation. I think I'm going to drop going for Brittannia and try to get Hispania. I am aware of the Duchy thing and recently destroyed the Duchy of Dyflinn. Again, thanks for all of that.