To those who prefer CK2 over CK3... explain why you do.

[Prince Maslama]

This thread was made to specifically document the grievances of CK players with the new iteration of the game.

[The Former]

Originally posted by Segovax:

"literally every mechanic"

Originally posted by Simply B:

literally nearly every mechanic

I mean this in the most jovial of ways, but you might have stopped reading a little earlier than that, because you missed a key word.

[Segovax]

Originally posted by A Worthless Husk of Nothing:

Originally posted by Segovax:

"literally every mechanic"

Originally posted by Simply B:

literally nearly every mechanic

I mean this in the most jovial of ways, but you might have stopped reading a little earlier than that, because you missed a key word.

I also missed "factually" but if you want to stretch the definition of "nearly" to "dozens" then that's on you.

[Shibbyland]

It’s paradox tho. Give it 10 years we’ll have $300 of DLC.

I actually do quite like CK3. That being said I’ve never played CK2, I think I’d struggle to get into it just because it’s looking so dated now

[The Former]

Originally posted by Segovax:

Originally posted by A Worthless Husk of Nothing:

I mean this in the most jovial of ways, but you might have stopped reading a little earlier than that, because you missed a key word.

I also missed "factually" but if you want to stretch the definition of "nearly" to "dozens" then that's on you.

An exhaustive comparison of ALL features would be difficult since it's not always easy to define what constitutes a "feature". I did my best pre-launch.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/1158310/discussions/0/2791621875946490714/
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1158310/discussions/0/3938911974182205818/

So since I've already handled all that as best I probably can, let's go through the bullet points for all the CK2 DLC according to the wiki and count up what's missing. (Guess I'll throw in the base game too since it lists it on the same page.)

Correct me when I get it wrong, please, I'm tired and my brain might not be working the best. (Plus, you know, I'm kind of a worthless husk of nothing.)

Full disclosure: I'm ignoring any "feature" listing that says anything about new events, since it's impossible to know off the top of my head how MANY events CK3 had at launch and how many each DLC provides.

Base Game

- Start a game at any point between 1066 and 1337 and play until 1453
- Pick a Christian lord and make sure his dynasty survives as you play a succession of his descendants through the ages
- Gain Prestige for every successive character you play, furthering the glory of your Dynasty
- Expand your feudal domain - and keep it from falling apart
- Unravel the plots of your courtiers and vassals, each with their own opinions and agendas
- Take up the Cross and fight the Moor, the Heathen and the Heretic.
- Defend against the onslaught of the Mongol Horde
- Struggle with the Pope for control of the bishops
- Relive the Middle Ages with up to 32 other players in a competitive multiplayer mode

2 missing features.

Sword of Islam

- Muslim rulers now playable.
- Updated interface for playable Muslims characters.
- Unlocks more than 20 features in the game.

Gaaah, what the hell? I can't compare a statement like that! I'll go into the DLC's page and quote those.

- Dynastic Decadence is increased by dynasty members with the Decadent trait. Decadence inflicts penalties to income and troops, and eventually results in a massive uprising.
- With Iqta government, Muslims are locked to Agnatic Open succession, in which a Muslim's most powerful son will be his heir. In addition, Muslims are unable to change succession and gender laws, with other laws costing Piety to change.
- Muslims practice polygamy and may have up to four wives. A Muslim is expected to have a number of wives dependent on his rank. This results in Muslims having many children.
- Muslim CBs give them a very aggressive playstyle. (Pretty sure most of this got bundled into CK3's new CBs.)
- A map extension into Mali with some new counties and titles

ARGUABLY 3 features missing. Iqta is tricky because the clan government type did some of what it did. We'll... say 2.5? Like I said, this is gonna be tricky.

Legacy of Rome

- Explore the Intricate Faction System: Join a faction to put pressure on your liege and to keep track of factions in your own realm.
- Raise Standing Armies: You will now be able to use retinues to have standing armies in your domain. The size is determined by technology.
- Experience Factional Revolts: No more easily defeated rebellions. Disgruntled vassals will now band together in revolt against your rule.
- Appoint Orthodox Patriarchs: Orthodox kingdoms and empires can now control their own heads of religion instead of being dependent on the patriarch of Constantinople. (This one's tricky since there are ways to control your head of faith KIND of in CK3? We'll count it.)
- Streamlined Mobilization: You will always raise a single, larger levy from your direct vassal; no need to worry about the opinions of the lower vassals.
- Leader Focus: Appoint your generals wisely, their traits & skills are now of vital importance on the field of battle. More commander traits are now added to increase the importance of your choice of military leaders.
- Improve Your Ruler: You can now actively strive to improve your skills or traits through the new Self Improvement Ambitions.

1 missing feature.

Sunset Invasion

Leaving this out because it's not really core to the experience, it was alternate universe stuff. If you wanna say that's cooking the books in CK3's favor that's fair, but that's how I feel.

The Republic

All of this is missing, so call it +8.

The Old Gods

- Play as a Pagan chieftain and ravage your weak neighbors. If you remain at peace for too long, your people will grow restless...
- The new, earliest start date is 867 AD. The Viking Rurik has founded the kingdom of Rus and the Great Heathen Army under the sons of Ragnar Lodbrok rampage through England.
- Play as a Zoroastrian lord and restore your ancient religion to prominence.
- Adventurers: Landless characters can gather armies and carve out new realms on their own.
- Prepared Invasions: Declare your intention to invade and watch your armies grow with adventurers and restless warriors, but don't wait too long to start your war or it might all fall apart... (This technically counts as part of the above feature but fair's fair, I said, I'd count everything.)
- Rebels with a Cause: Rebels are no longer a faceless menace – they are now led by characters with agendas.
- Loot and pillage provinces. Burn down cities and take their gold!
- Sacrifice to Odin at the great Blot!
- Christians and Muslims can dispatch missions to convert the depraved heathens.
- New beautiful Pagan interface skin. (Not to the degree Old Gods did it, but it's there, top right corner.)

2 missing features.

Sons of Abraham

- Control the Papacy through the College of Cardinals.
- Ask the Pope for money and favors.
- Play as a Jewish lord and restore the kingdom of Israel.
- Interact with the Holy Orders and see their influence grow.
- Pick sides in Islam as a rationalist Mutazili or an opposing Ashari. (Part of the new religion mechanics.)
- Retire troublesome courtiers to a monastery. (Not in base game but it was added in a free update.)
- Go on a pilgrimage to one of the holy places.

2 missing features.

Rajas of India

- Play as an Indian ruler.
- Three new Unique Religions. Choose between the Buddhist, Jain and Hindu beliefs for different benefits.
- Caste System.
- Elephants and Jungles.
- Hundreds of new Provinces including Central Asia and large parts of Siberia too.
- New Interface Skin. (Pretty sure India doesn't have a unique bar in CK3.)
- Indian characters get a unique set of facial profiles and clothes.

2 missing features.

Charlemagne

- New Earlier bookmark, 769: almost 100 more years of Crusader Kings II.
- Special story event series for Charlemagne.
- Annual Chronicle in the style of the Saxon chronicle.
- Create new dynamic/fantasy kingdoms and empires based on your current duchy or kingdom, named the same, with the same flag.
- Dozens of new cultures.
- Brand new system for climate and seasonal transitions.
- Regency overhaul.

4 missing features.

Way of Life

- Set a Focus (a "way of life") for your character to give them an immediate skill boost, develop their abilities and determine the kind of events and decisions they tend to get (there are ten of these focuses: Rulership, Business, Hunting, War, Family, Carousing, Seduction, Intrigue, Scholarship and Theology.) (All of this was repurposed and expanded in the lifestyle mechanic.)
- Many new diplomatic interactions: Duel, Seduce, Banish to Monastery, Break up with Lover, etc. (I don't count this because Duel is the only one I don't recall in CK3 at launch? And Banish to Monastery was already discussed in another DLC so I'm confused.)

0 missing features.

Horse Lords

- New Central Asian cultures: Tarim Basin and large parts of Mongolia added to map.

(The next one I'll break up into the parts in CK3 and the parts not in CK3 at launch.)

- Nomadic government available for steppe cultures. These function in a radically different way from sedentary societies - you manage populations instead of holdings, and armies are raised based on population size. (Nomadic cultures do have specific benefits in CK3, but not in this way.)
- Also, the ruler’s power must be balanced against the interests of the various Clans within the realm (Clans are not normal vassals, but rather distinct families and factions within the nomad group).
- Non-nomadic rulers will have special options for combating nomads, such as constructing forts in wild enemy lands.
- The Silk Road, with corresponding dynamic trade mechanics and conflicts.
- New nomad mercenaries. Send your unruly sons or brothers away as soldiers of fortune. (This works differently; sons and brothers can still go be mercenaries, they just make the choice themselves.)
- Landless raiding adventurers may appear and harass a region for a time or try to conquer land and settle. (... Wait wasn't this in Old Gods? I'm not counting this twice...)
- New diplomacy option: Tributary States.

4 missing features, plus one repeat missing feature from Old Gods.

Conclave

- Councils can now vote on changes to realm laws – or you can try to limit their power and influence. (Remodeled in the powerful vassal mechanics.)
- Revised education system for royal children, with new traits and events designed for childhood. (The revisions influenced CK3's system at launch.)
New diplomatic system that prioritizes marital alliances and non-aggression pacts, as well as the possibility of coalitions. (This is a 0.5 one; some elements were packaged into CK3's diplomacy, some weren't.)
- Non-nomadic rulers can create a mercenary band of their own to increase their wealth. However, the mercenary band's captains may grow ambitious (We technically don't make the call to do this, so I'm counting it.)

1.5 missing features.

Reaper's Due

- The Black Death: New additions to epidemic system include this super destructive disease and a new map mode that track the expansion of deadly illnesses. (Albeit, the mechanics aren't as... mechanical?)
- Court Physicians: This new position for learned courtiers opens up a series of events tied to the diagnosis and treatment of diseases with medieval tech.
- Hospitals: Slow down the spread of epidemics by investing in these outposts that care for the sick and infirm. (TECHNICALLY yes, but they're just control-modifiers in CK3.)
- Prosperity and Depopulation: Watch your provinces thrive under your careful attention and degrade under the pressures of diseases run amok. (Though not directly tied to a disease mechanic, all sorts of eventualities can affect the prosperity of your holdings in CK3 that couldn't in CK2, so I count it a 0.5.)
- Seclusion: Take a page from the Masque of the Red Death and hide yourself away with your court as plagues ravage the countryside.
- And even more: New physical traits, new events chains and a host of smaller changes. (There's no way I can evaluate entries like this easily... Setting it aside.)

2.5 features missing. Since the plague is such a big feature of Reaper's Due, I'm also gonna add another 0.5, CK3's plagues are tame. Call it 3.

Monks and Mystics

I will not be counting each type of society as a separate feature the way this list does.
- Societies: Characters earn new powers and encounter new events as they climb the ranks of religious societies
- Relics and Special Items: Characters can acquire holy relics, masterwork weapons or elaborate pieces of jewelry. Store them in your treasury to gain prestige and other benefits.
- New Orders for Councilors: Your closest advisors will never be idle, with new general instructions that let them use their Talents while sitting safe in your castle.
- Monks and Mystics also includes new portraits and army designs for English and German cultures.

2 missing features.

Jade Dragon

All of this is missing except the all but one of the CBs, +3 missing features.

Holy Fury

- Shattered and Random Worlds: Start your game on a fictional map of Europe as a small realm fighting for space, or on a random map with historical analogues for the great kingdoms of yore. (You can do something similar in CK3, but not like this.)
- Warrior Lodges: Join a Pagan warrior lodge and raid your way up the ranks, unlocking access to powerful allies and greater military skill.
- Legendary Bloodlines: Descendants of great warrior heroes will have bonuses that match the accomplishments of their forefathers, including historical bloodlines of Charlemagne, Genghis Khan and others. (Kinda packaged into dynasty mechanics, call it 0.5.)
- Sway or Antagonize Your Neighbors: Try to win a reluctant vassal through charm and persuasion, or provoke someone you want to push into conflict.
- Sainthood: Pious Catholics can become canonized, passing on their glory to their descendants and making their resting place a site of great value.
- Coronations: Feudal kings and emperors must find clergy to crown them, since all power descends from the heavens.
- New Crusade Events: Deeper gameplay for the religious wars of the era. (I have no way to evaluate this, gonna assume it's worth counting.)
- New Succession Laws: A Pagan Elder Council may have the final word in how a realm is divided among heirs, or a ruler may challenge his brother to combat to unify a realm.
- And much more: Changes to religion, custom names for people or objects, deeper baptismal mechanics, lists of people you’ve killed, and other small changes for flavor and variety.

A whopping 6.5 missing features.

Final Tally

According to this dubious method, 40 missing features. That's 3.3 dozen, so full credit, you were right by definition: That's dozens of missing features at launch.

Of course, a search for Steam's "strike" syntax in this post counts 51 included features, which is 4.25 dozen. So equally true to say there were dozens of features included, and also true to say that there were more features included than not.

Which is pretty impressive when you consider that we're looking at ten years worth of DLC, here.

[Segovax]

Originally posted by A Worthless Husk of Nothing:

snip b/c 18k character limit

You're obviously deeply invested in being right about something, so whatever it is you need, here's your cookie.

[The Former]

I'm actually downright excited at the concept of societies in CK3, after seeing what they did with university visits, but that's a topic for another forum.

[Segovax]

Originally posted by Simply B:

Not to mention, some of it is just outdated concepts.

Some have tried to even use universally panned mechanics from CK 2 like they are missing from CK 3...It's intentional.

But it's all they have to grasp onto.

As you have probably already noticed in confusion. That you literally can copy past actual fact then have someone claim their opinion and the wall of text trying to convince this personal opinion, like it should be taken as facts.

Oh well, It's sad to see people degrade CK 2's memory in this vain attempt to validate what they personally feel for them-self on someone else.

But yeah, would love to see a fully complete version of societies (yes, we got most those mechanics in CK 3 already.) This is compared to the half baked CK 2 version, which I'm sure suddenly will be considered a masterpiece now, despite being considered half-baked even by it's biggest fans. This was of course before people felt the need to fear CK 3's existance.

Getting more perk trees would be cool this way. Just no touch of death bullcrap.

You were literally and factually incorrect. You deserved a clown award for your equally desperate investment in being right. So here's a cookie.

[Segovax]

Originally posted by Simply B:

Originally posted by Segovax:

You were literally and factually incorrect. You deserved a clown award for your equally desperate investment in being right. So here's a cookie.

Eh, i'm sorry your think your options are fact. Perhaps in the future you will recognize the difference.

Anyways enjoy CK 2, they are wonderful games.

I prefer the more content rich successor crusader kings 3. To each their own.

but yeah, don't wait up for Ck 2 to have the spectrum of variables in CK 3's code. It was already outdated when it was release, intentionally to make it viable at the time.

but yeah, glad to see ck 2 excellent design and writing makes it seem more capable in the code then it is.

Heres a fun little fact:

Ck 2 has over 10k event cards with all it's DLC, wow. But each event that would include a trait based text option, has 10 or so exact duplicates of the same card but with a different trait option....

Some might go " wait, no, they just change that like of text and implement the proper traits text."

That's what I mean by outdated structure when it was released, specifically so the devs could handle such a giant game.....still good to see CK 2 still has that power of illusion.

My "options" assuming you mean "opinion" (maybe in the future you'll understand the difference) is irrelevant. There were literally and factually dozens of features not included in CK3 at launch.

Whatever else you're on about is equally irrelevant.

I don't care if you like CK3. Glad you got your money's worth. But that doesn't suddenly make what you're saying any more true.

[bri]

You left the character creator and EU converter out of your list of DLCs. Neither of which was included in CK 3 at release, one of which is unlikely to ever be there...

[VoiD]

I find it intresting you're suddenly dropping every point you were trying to make, after being shown that CK2 has more depth, more mechanics, more difficulty, more content for it's cost (you never brought it up again after we made the math earlier today), and all you're left with it "but the code is better", supposedly.

Of course, even if it was, that would still be irrelevant, as the way a code is writen doesn't necessarily mean anything to the game itself, you can add as many variables as you want, if the end result is a passive AI in a game devoid of any difficulty, you just wasted your time.

What really matters, and the only thing that matters, is the end result, the gameplay, I've seen both, and I found CK3 to be severely lacking, as we've discussed in several threads, many in which you could not answer or defend your position, this is an objective fact.

That being said nobody is saying you can't have an opinion, all we're saying is that your opinion is wrong, and having an opinion doesn't mean it can't be verified.

[Kimlin]

Why is CK2 such a threat to CK3 fanboys that they need to come to this forum to try and prove why their game is better? If all we are doing is looking at the game through rose tinted glasses(which wouldn’t be relevant since most of us currently play CK2) why is there such a need to convince us or yourselves that CK3 is better?

[The Former]

Originally posted by Kimlin:

Why is CK2 such a threat to CK3 fanboys that they need to come to this forum to try and prove why their game is better? If all we are doing is looking at the game through rose tinted glasses(which wouldn’t be relevant since most of us currently play CK2) why is there such a need to convince us or yourselves that CK3 is better?

Can't speak for everyone, but I'm here for two reasons:

1. Weigh in on CK2, answer questions, etc.
2. Ask people to stop dojo raiding us on the CK3 forums.

Any discussion I have about CK2 vs. CK3 is entirely a matter of opinion, and I try to even keep that out of it as best I can, just making plain observations. For example, when I replied to a "there a dozens of features missing in CK3" thread with "Literally true, but there are also dozens there."

Strictly speaking, the reason this forum's back on my radar in the first place is because of this very thread. OP came to criticize CK3 in the CK3 forum and eventually posted a link to this thread, which I assumed was a CK3 thread and replied to. Then I was in the vortex.

[Kimlin]

Originally posted by Simply B:

Originally posted by Kimlin:

Why is CK2 such a threat to CK3 fanboys that they need to come to this forum to try and prove why their game is better? If all we are doing is looking at the game through rose tinted glasses(which wouldn’t be relevant since most of us currently play CK2) why is there such a need to convince us or yourselves that CK3 is better?

it is the a strange thing CK 3 forums are seeing. I went through 6 pages of ck 2 forum. Ck 3 is mentioned 3 times as a title thread. All as a result of curiosity becasue:

There are a large handful of CK 2 preference players (I assume), that force their way into any constructive CK 3 discussion with WALLs of text, and arguments.

and you just Start a thread and then it's taken over by people trying to like "revive" ck2 or something. I don't get it. because it's not constructive it "well this suck because of X." Like okay, don't need it posted 50 times in a single thread.

but the whole thing coming here for me, is just a curiosity.

Because you make a thread of "so, what DLC should Ck 3 get next?" and it's just ck 2 barf with a few tired posters trying to contribute. Which is why a lot of that has stopped on the forum.

I love both games and they are just different, so it suck seeing this.

Considering you claimed that CK3 released with almost all of CK2s features, I find it hard to believe that you ever played CK2, at least not more than the free base game and only for a very short duration if that.

[Kimlin]

Originally posted by Simply B:

Originally posted by Simply B:

it is the a strange thing CK 3 forums are seeing. I went through 6 pages of ck 2 forum. Ck 3 is mentioned 3 times as a title thread. All as a result of curiosity becasue:

There are a large handful of CK 2 preference players (I assume), that force their way into any constructive CK 3 discussion with WALLs of text, and arguments.

and you just Start a thread and then it's taken over by people trying to like "revive" ck2 or something. I don't get it. because it's not constructive it "well this suck because of X." Like okay, don't need it posted 50 times in a single thread.

but the whole thing coming here for me, is just a curiosity.

Because you make a thread of "so, what DLC should Ck 3 get next?" and it's just ck 2 barf with a few tired posters trying to contribute. Which is why a lot of that has stopped on the forum.

I love both games and they are just different, so it suck seeing this.

No ck 3 sees ck 2 as a threat...it's no longer being developed, and CK 3 is. It started bigger and will only get bigger. Why would anyone see a game that didn't even have a modern format to the games code, Be seen as a threat?

It doesn't, it's being pestered by people who think their game will be forgotten. Ya know, the game no longer being developed. The game that has a player base 3x smaller.

I mean Ck 2 proves it's excellence by the fact it still does have a player base.

Op. ah.

So you were so offended by people disparaging you’re beloved game that you decided to come here and whine about it?

[Segovax]

Look if we're gonna shadowban posts you oughta get all the relevant ones from both sides please.