Should I found a new empire?

[kazenorin]

This is my first actual game (excluding the tutorial).

The year is 956, playing as my sixth generation ruler, a catholic norse, tribal, gavelkind multi-king.

I currently hold three kingdom titles of Sweden, Norway and Denmark. I also hold 60% of Lapland - can create king title, and all but four counties of Finland - but cannot usurp the title from the owner because of "region and primary title issues".

Unfortunately, even though I hold that many titles, I just have 65 of the 95 counties of Scandinavia (probably because I don't hold any Estonian land). To create the Scandinavia emperor title, I need 76.

At first, I wanted a emperor title to make the gavelkind succession "easier", so my six generation ruler worked quite hard. I had two options, to conquer the rest of the land I need, or to raid 8000 prestige and 1000 gold. Being a somewhat powerful multi-king and along with the crappy threat mechanism, I chose to raid.

After an entire life of raiding, I've finally amassed some 3500 gold and 8000 prestige, enough to create an empire that's essentially Scandinavia without Estonia. As a bonus, I've secured the inheritance for my son by disinheriting my other son. So there would be no loss of titles for this generation.

Then I found out being an emperor doesn't really make my succession easier and that my descendants would still get divided. Dream busted.

I am now 62 years old, stressed and depressed (literally in-game) and might die anytime. Hunting didn't help removing the stress and depression. I must decide whether to use up my prestige to improve the tribes, or to found the empire. I'm not sure whether I could amass another 8000 prestige as my son (heck I have no idea how I managed to get 8000 prestige in the first place - I began with negative prestige).

If I don't found the empire, I probably would end up conquering the remain 13 counties and create Scandinavia instead. That might quite hard, especially since Estonia is under the rule of another relatively strong king.

And If I do... What do I get?

For a moment this feels like working hard towards your dream, and when it comes to close to be true, you realize it's not exactly what you want - but then it's already too late - you're about to die of old age.

[The Uruk Scribe]

I just did something like what your describing in my current playthrough. My advice is form the Empire, chose one of your kids to become Emperor after you.

If one of the other Kings of your empire breaks whit you You'll still have a strong claim to said kingdom.

Then make it the second Emperors lifes work to go feudal and get a better form of succession going.

[Glokenpop]

Create an empire and conquer the remaining 13 counties later to create Scandinavia. You'll have two imperial titles then and you can destroy the one with no de jure land.

[zoellerama]

Create the Empire. It may be gavelkind, but the Empire will stay intact - any Kingdoms that go to other kids will at least still be in the Empire, while without the covering title, they could become independent, which means you have to conquer them or murder your brother/brothers.

You also get to name 2 more commanders and get a bonus to technology point generation.

[Azunai]

create the custom empire. forget about scandinavia. it would be a mistake to create a 2nd empire. don't do that. lots of trouble for 0 gain, especially while you're still under gavelkind.

work towards a sane succession law afterwards. anything is better than gavelkind (except for elective gavelkind lol). then realize that there is no more tension, everything is stable and predictable. get bored. quit.

[kazenorin]

Thanks for the advice! I think I'd create the empire.

I've just took the King of Finland title and another Norwegian duchy that I suddenly got a claim on, that's altogether 6 more counties but still 7 away from Scandinavia. If I create the empire now, it would really be Scandinavia sans Estonia. Threat is at 33% and takes 11 years to return to zero. My current ruler probably wouldn't survive that long.

Being gavelkind I assume I couldn't break the custom empire title even when I get Scandinavia, but as it may seem, many of my vassals have completed their Stone Hillfort. My heir would probably see the future empire become feudal without having to build too many stone hillforts. My capital is already at Legalism 3, so it would be matter of time and money (to bribe vassals) to adopt Primogeniture (or maybe directly go for Elective monarchy?).

One thing about my current playstyle...
I try hard to has less kids for smoother inheritance.
So despite starting as a lowly chief and playing as the sixth generation under (elective) gavelkind, it was only the current generation that I had to fight against my nephew for unification. Not sure if that's why there aren't much people of my house... It kind of works for catholic tribal rulers, but might run into bad succession problems under feudalism...

[HunterRassius]

To us vets, you're actually in an incredibly strong position.

As most have pointed out when you end up forming the empire title your gavelkind succession problem becomes almost moot because any kingdoms that get "passed off" will simply be your vassals. I do wonder though... seeing as how your succession is secured is your heir incredibly old or something? What prevents you from simply taking over as him and gulping down the remaining 7 counties or w/e you need then forming Scandinavia?

[kazenorin]

@HunterRassius My heir is actually pretty young, he's just 25 (while I'm 63). Plenty of time to conquer Scandinavia and adopt feudalism during his lifetime (maybe).

Though that would involve multiple wars against a realm as almost as large as I am. I have stronger liege levies and retinues, probably 15k vs 5k, but our vassals kind of match (25k vs 20k), except that mines locate in Nordic lands, they are Estonia + Lithuania, so my vassals are going to have a hard time getting to their lands. Not to mention it takes forever to fabricate claims or wait for holy war threat cooldown...

That's actually kind of why I'm asking whether I should form the empire now, or take Scandinavia later (before next generation dies). Especially since forming a custom empire might not be an option after succession, and apparently I can't adopt feudalism if I have to go to war now.

Here is the current realm map: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1682599090

I just came to realize I don't actually need to fight for Estonia to get the remaining 7 counties...

[HunterRassius]

I'm surprised you aren't at the 80% you need already. Some reason you can't go after Island? They Christian? Looks like both Denmark and Estonia are in that same "big" kingdom. You probably only need 1 more war with them to secure what you need. Either way you've got some time (Not to mention 3k gold! That gives you WAY more options then you think for your heir because of your "create title" notifier).

In regards to threat there's the statecraft option on your chancellor. As well threat generally doesn't get into a real bad tier till 50+.

Edit: If you're having difficulty with claims do a map wide search for characters. Set the filters to men and ruler = no and sort by Diplomacy. If you can find a 20+ diplomacy chancellor out there you'll have super fast claim ticks.

Another option is to ally with the Holy Roman Empire. The enemy kingdom wouldn't stand a chance after that and it keeps The Empire from becoming a "threat problem".

[Landstander]

my advice. make the empire destroy all but 2 king titles(they only make people want to claim it) start purging all those who do not like the gov change. give yor children the king titles and make sure your dudkes are extremly loyal. You might want to look at viceroy idk if i spelled it right. those kingdoms are given back at death and you can give them out again

[ZombieHunter]

Yes. Create the empire. Emperor is easy street. Then make sure you only have king vassals. Also you can hold as many kingdom titles as you want and incur no penalty. When you grant kingdoms or create and grant make sure you give them away with all lower titles as well. This gives all the pesky annoying revolt happy dukes to them to deal with.

Keep a kingdom title for yourself and keep your demesne high for income and troops. Upgrade your demesne, try to get legalism 3 to move to primogeniture. Once you get primo then you can safely offload kingdoms to your heir b/c when you die you play as them and you will get them back.

Worst case is you found the empire, die, gavelkind splits the titles, you grab them back easily b/c you retain the primary titles, get everything back in order, research legalism and eventually maybe in one or two generations you get Primogeniture also ideally with a council that has no power.

There really is no downside to founding a new empire. Once you do this and die you play as your heir and you will have a much easier path forward. I use my heirs as title containers b/c I know I will get them back when I die. They are a nice way to offload titles, etc.

Also king vassals are not as whiny, pesky and revolt happy as duke vassals. Kings are generally very happy to serve under you and rarely cause issues.

[Storm]

Worth noting, typically counts of your dejure territory and same religion/culture will accept vassalization offers, given enough power difference. You probably could get (I believe it is) Jamtland that way- even if he's a duke, he still may accept based on your traits. Maybe even Island, too.