Crusader Kings II

Crusader Kings II

Ver estadísticas:
Calstrix 21 AGO 2017 a las 20:20
Naval Battles
Every other paradox game has naval battles, and its not like they weren't happening in this time period either. You really should add them to the game.
< >
Mostrando 1-15 de 31 comentarios
Liberty Prime 22 AGO 2017 a las 13:46 
I don't know why they didn't already put it in. It's not like it could be that hard to implement would it?
☭Woodsman☭ 22 AGO 2017 a las 16:18 
Publicado originalmente por butters:
I don't know why they didn't already put it in. It's not like it could be that hard to implement would it?

Nothing they've implemented in another Clauswitz game is hard to implement in one of their other games, but it wouldn't be very historically accurate. Like the wiki in the poster above you mentions, the first recorded sea battle was in 1210BC, but they were fairly rare and with the losing side having nowhere to escape, they were all or nothing. Adding it to this game would innevitably give the player reason to use it far more often than it actually happened.
Calstrix 22 AGO 2017 a las 20:32 
I mean this is the time period where the Byzantines were using Greek Fire in naval battles. This is an excerpt from the article you sent covering the time period and region of CK2.

"While the barbarian invasions of the 4th century and later mostly occurred by land, some notable examples of naval conflicts are known. In the late 3rd Century, in the reign of Emperor Gallienus, a large raiding party composed by Goths, Gepids and Heruli, launched itself in the Black Sea, raiding the coasts of Anatolia and Thrace, and crossing into the Aegean Sea, plundering mainland Greece (including Athens and Sparta) and going as far as Crete and Rhodes. In the twilight of the Roman Empire in the late 4th Century, examples include that of Emperor Majorian, who, with the help of Constantinople, mustered a large fleet in a failed effort to expel the Germanic invaders from their recently conquered African territories, and a defeat of an Ostrogothic fleet at Sena Gallica in the Adriatic Sea.

During the Muslim conquests of the 7th century, Arab fleets first appeared, raiding Sicily in 652 (see History of Islam in southern Italy and Emirate of Sicily), and defeating the Byzantine Navy in 655. Constantinople was saved from a prolonged Arab siege in 678 by the invention of Greek fire, an early form of flamethrower that was devastating to the ships in the besieging fleet. These were the first of many encounters during the Byzantine-Arab Wars.

The Islamic Caliphate, or Arab Empire, became the dominant naval power in the Mediterranean Sea from the 7th to 13th centuries, during what is known as the Islamic Golden Age. One of the most significant inventions in medieval naval warfare was the torpedo, invented in Syria by the Arab inventor Hasan al-Rammah in 1275. His torpedo ran on water with a rocket system filled with explosive gunpowder materials and had three firing points. It was an effective weapon against ships.[4]

In the 8th century the Vikings appeared, although their usual style was to appear quickly, plunder, and disappear, preferably attacking undefended locations. The Vikings raided places along the coastline of England and France, with the greatest threats being in England. They would raid monasteries for their wealth and lack of formidable defenders. They also utilized rivers and other auxiliary waterways to work their way inland in the eventual invasion of Britain. They wreaked havoc in Northumbria and Mercia and the rest of Anglia before being halted by Wessex. King Alfred the Great of England was able to stay the Viking invasions with a pivotal victory at the Battle of Edington. Alfred defeated Guthrum, establishing the boundaries of Danelaw in an 884 treaty. The effectiveness of Alfred's 'fleet' has been debated; Dr. Kenneth Harl has pointed out that as few as eleven ships were sent to combat the Vikings, only two of which were not beaten back or captured.
The naval battle of Sluys, 1340, from Jean Froissart's Chronicles

The Vikings also fought several sea battles among themselves. This was normally done by binding the ships on each side together, thus essentially fighting a land battle on the sea. However the fact that the losing side could not easily escape meant that battles tended to be hard and bloody. The Battle of Svolder is perhaps the most famous of these battles.

As Arab power in the Mediterranean began to wane, the Italian trading towns of Genoa, Pisa, and Venice stepped in to seize the opportunity, setting up commercial networks and building navies to protect them. At first the navies fought with the Arabs (off Bari in 1004, at Messina in 1005), but then they found themselves contending with Normans moving into Sicily, and finally with each other. The Genoese and Venetians fought four naval wars, in 1253–1284, 1293–1299, 1350–1355, and 1378–1381. The last ended with a decisive Venetian victory, giving it almost a century to enjoy Mediterranean trade domination before other European countries began expanding into the south and west.

In the north of Europe, the near-continuous conflict between England and France was characterised by raids on coastal towns and ports along the coastlines and the securing of sea lanes to protect troop–carrying transports. The Battle of Dover in 1217, between a French fleet of 80 ships under Eustace the Monk and an English fleet of 40 under Hubert de Burgh, is notable as the first recorded battle using sailing ship tactics. The battle of Arnemuiden (23 September 1338), which resulted in a French victory, marked the opening of the Hundred Years War and was the first battle involving artillery.[5] However the battle of Sluys, fought two years later, saw the destruction of the French fleet in a decisive action which allowed the English effective control of the sea lanes and the strategic initiative for much of the war."

This hardly sounds like nothing, and certainly not "both fleets sailing in the same sea without engaging in combat" like with what happens now.
Liberty Prime 22 AGO 2017 a las 20:58 
I think a really cool way to implement it would to have the levies embarked on a fleet determine its naval power since at this time period I'm pretty sure the ships mostly weren't weapons themselves like during the age of sail. This would also prevent a noble with a big fleet destroying not only his enemies fleet, but also his embarked army, without having to raise any levies at all. After all, when you raise a fleet it doesn't necessarily mean you're also raising soldiers to do the actual fighting. Of course not all soldiers would be equal. Cavalry would especially be useless. Also naval attrition would need to be used so you can't have a 100,000 man embarked doomstack. I highly doubt naval battles ever even got close to that scale until more modern times.
Última edición por Liberty Prime; 22 AGO 2017 a las 21:06
Calstrix 22 AGO 2017 a las 21:10 
Yeah I agree, naval battles using armies at sea with different bonuses like light troops being better and cav getting heavily nerfed would be great
Red Dragon 23 AGO 2017 a las 4:34 
Personally, I don't like the EU IV's ship combat though. Its modelling of naval warfare is ridiculous, I think there should be a percentage chance to encounter an enemy inside a sea tile based on fleet size, formation and ship types and you should have settings determining when to attack, flee etc. before and possibly during the battle.
Publicado originalmente por Kautz:
using armies at sea with different bonuses like light troops being better
I don't see why. It's not like heavy armour becomes worse at protecting you from getting stabbed at sea, it's just going to get you dead if you fall in the water. But then, in this kind of battle you're probably dead if you fall in the water whatever armour you wear.
Cavalry would probably just count as the infantry equivalent.
Talezteller 23 AGO 2017 a las 5:48 
Naval battles before gunpowder were broadly speaking fleet melees, where ships (galleys, mostly) would either ram each other, or go board-to-board to allow embarked troops to assault enemy ships. Archers obviously played some role but since they couldn't really hurt the ships themselves they would mostly just try to snipe enemy crewmen.

A very simple model of naval warfare could be implemented by giving galleys a base, low fighting power, and giving embarked armies a modifier to reflect the differences between land and naval fighting: big attack bonus for archers, defense bonus for heavy and light infantry, attack penalty for heavy and light cavalry to equalize them with their infantry counterpart.

You could even make fleets into armies, split fleets in flanks, give every ship a basic crew of light infantry, or maybe a new, specific troop type, like "oarers" (say, 50/ship), meaning they are likely to be overwhelmed if even a smaller fleet but carrying a sizable fighting force meets them. Then, when troops are embarked, they are split among the "flanks" of the fleet and their total attack values are added to that flank.

For every 50 "oarers" lost, a ship is destroyed (it has either sunk or there are now not enough men to crew it and it gets scuttled), along with all the troops it's carrying. You would then have to balance the oarers to make sure some ships get destroyed in combat but fleets do not regularly stackwiped. You could probably do this by giving "oarers" a big defensive value, particularly in "skirmish" phases, to reflect the fact that they would stay inside the ship and not take part in the fighting unless something goes horribly wrong.


Too bad Paradox has a "minimum result with minimum effort" phylosophy, preferring to charge for minimal tweaks like a new button there and a new window here, as opposed to actually working on something new, and that by now they've fully embarked on the path to shifting CKII's focus away from the grand strategy side of things towards the roleplay side.
Última edición por Talezteller; 23 AGO 2017 a las 6:54
JBrown247 23 AGO 2017 a las 6:49 
Publicado originalmente por Talezteller:
Naval battles before gunpowder were roughly speaking fleet melees, where ships (galleys, mostly) would either ram each other, or go board-to-board to allow embarked troops to assault enemy ships. Archers obviously played some role but since they couldn't really hurt the ships themselves they would mostly just try to snipe enemy crewmen.

A very simple model of naval warfare could be implemented by giving galleys a base, low fighting power, and giving embarked armies a modifier to reflect the differences between land and naval fighting: big attack bonus for archers, defense bonus for heavy and light infantry, attack penalty for heavy and light cavalry to equalize them with their infantry counterpart.

You could even make fleets into armies, split fleets in flanks, give every ship a basic crew of light infantry, or maybe a new, specific troop type, like "oarers" (say, 50/ship), meaning they are likely to be overwhelmed if even a smaller fleet but carrying a sizable fighting force meets them. Then, when troops are embarked, they are split among the "flanks" of the fleet and their total attack values are added to that flank.

For every 50 "oarers" lost, a ship is destroyed (it has either sunk or there are now not enough men to crew it and it gets scuttled), along with all the troops it's carrying. You would then have to balance the oarers to make sure some ships get destroyed in combat but fleets do not regularly stackwiped. You could probably do this by giving "oarers" a big defensive value, particularly in "skirmish" phases, to reflect the fact that they would stay inside the ship and not take part in the fighting unless something goes horribly wrong.


Too bad Paradox has a "minimum result with minimum effort" phylosophy, preferring to charge for minimal tweaks like a new button there and a new window here, as opposed to actually working on something new, and that by now they've fully embarked on the path to shifting CKII's focus away from the grand strategy side of things towards the roleplay side.
nicca tryin to be like Jordan Peterson "roughly speaking" lmao get ja own catch phrase and go clean your ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ room
Última edición por JBrown247; 23 AGO 2017 a las 6:49
Talezteller 23 AGO 2017 a las 6:55 
Publicado originalmente por JBrown247:
nicca tryin to be like Jordan Peterson "roughly speaking" lmao get ja own catch phrase and go clean your ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ room

Publicado originalmente por Talezteller:
Naval battles before gunpowder were broadly speaking fleet melees

Is this better?
JBrown247 23 AGO 2017 a las 6:57 
Publicado originalmente por Talezteller:
Publicado originalmente por JBrown247:
nicca tryin to be like Jordan Peterson "roughly speaking" lmao get ja own catch phrase and go clean your ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ room

Publicado originalmente por Talezteller:
Naval battles before gunpowder were broadly speaking fleet melees

Is this better?
ah, no points for creativity, but it works for a low IQ simpleton (just joking with you. I like the guy too, roughly speaking)
Varainger 23 AGO 2017 a las 7:00 
No
Why ?
For one as it was discussed since release a gazillion times.
Then basically as it was incredibly rare that actual sea battles happened (please don't troll me with links, i read about medieval sea battles and i read about them in detail), it would be terrible overpowered in the hand of a player and unbalanced and the AI couldn't handle it.
Hell even regular army movement AI has its issues currently.
But i don't forbid anyone dreaming. ;)
My 2cents.
Última edición por Varainger; 23 AGO 2017 a las 7:01
Liberty Prime 23 AGO 2017 a las 7:27 
Publicado originalmente por Yriel:
Publicado originalmente por Kautz:
using armies at sea with different bonuses like light troops being better
I don't see why. It's not like heavy armour becomes worse at protecting you from getting stabbed at sea, it's just going to get you dead if you fall in the water. But then, in this kind of battle you're probably dead if you fall in the water whatever armour you wear.
Cavalry would probably just count as the infantry equivalent.

It's lot easier to jump from ship to ship and maneuver around on a small boat with light armor. I'm not saying LI should be better that HI at sea but the difference between the two would be smaller. The cavalry being counted as infantry might make sense.
Liberty Prime 23 AGO 2017 a las 7:37 
I think paradox could implement this but discourage the player from using it way too much somehow. Naval battles weren't that common but it doesn't mean they should never happen. I'm not sure how though. Maybe make a naval battle be extremely costly in lives for both sides? Maybe allow smaller fleets to "outrun" larger fleets? Any ideas?
< >
Mostrando 1-15 de 31 comentarios
Por página: 1530 50

Publicado el: 21 AGO 2017 a las 20:20
Mensajes: 31