Discussion on Claim Fabrication and Casus Belli Mechanics

[F'Tagn]

So, after playing CK2 for a good while and downloading a few mods mainly having to do with making war more interesting and Casus Belli easier to come by, I'm curious about other player's thoughts about the Casus Belli mechanic as a whole and would like to start a discussion about it.

Personally, I get why the Casus Belli mechanic exists and I like the idea of it, but the execution of it is just wrong and kinda stupid to put bluntly. Allow me to explain.

Let's look at this historically/realistically for a sec. People with power didn't need a "claim" or anything of that matter before they declared war on someone. Let's be honest, a piece of paper (or lack thereof) isn't gonna stop someone with thousands of soldiers from taking something that they really want. Historically, the "claim" was basically the excuse the ruler would use for attacking/invading whatever it was that they were attacking/invading, very rarely was it the actual "honorable" reason. I wish this translated more to the game itself, in the sense that it would be much easier to declare war (especially on a NEIGHBOR). However, in base game CK2 it's a pain, especially if you're like me and want to start out as a lowly count with a custom character and work your way up to glory.

Because of this, I wish that Fabricating Claims was faster/easier. Now, I know what you're all thinking, the reason why Fabricating Claims takes forever/is so expensive is because "that's not the main way to get claims". Sure, but that's my problem. I don't like having to go through 2 - 3 ruler's lives setting up marriages and inheritances just so that I can get the county that's right next to me, that is owned by a ruler who has the same rank as mine, and is one that I can easily roll over with my military. I like to actually accomplish things in a single lifetime (Ya know, kinda like real life rulers and conquerers), to be able to actually seize power and rise within my own kingdom or forge my own. But, as base game CK2 is, that's kinda impossible to do in a single lifetime, even though it happened in real life all the time back in those days. Besides, more opportunity to rise and conquer leads to more interesting characters, stories, and not to mention, fun.

So, I have a couple ideas on how to make this better. First, is just to make fabricating claims much faster and much cheaper (or just add more Casus Belli in general). Change it so that you should be able to get one claim every year or two, perhaps even 2 in a year if your lucky. Or, if that's too much, perhaps have the option of a slider determining a claim's time and gold cost in the options/rules set-up and disable achievements if you nerf it too much. This would basically fix the issue and still stick with the same idea Paradox is going with (and yes, I know you can do this in the .ini files or whatever. and I do do this but still, that's kinda cheating and the whole point of this is to be an actual mechanic). However, a more interesting option, would be changing how Casus Belli work period. For instance, depending on the player's standing (Whether they're a count, duke, etc.) allow them free reign to declare war on their immediate neighbors (or hell, anyone) for whatever goal with a Casus Belli being optional. However, there are penalties for declaring war without one and perks to declaring war with one, and different perks depending on what Casus Belli you use. For example, if you declare war on your liege with no casus belli, all the other vassals are gonna look at like an asshat and probably join against you. However, if you have an Independance Casus Belli or someone with a claim on the Throne, then other vassals might choose to join your cause. This would still give a reason to going through the trouble of fabricating a claim or building up an inheritance hundreds of years in advance but also let's you just say "F*ck it! I have the numbers, I'm taking your stuff!"

Please, feel free to leave your own thoughts on the subject and what you think of my ideas.

[p.sahlstroem]

You are aware of the "Border Dispute" Casus Belli? It allows you to declare war for bordering counties at a hefty cost in prestige, gold and standing with everyone. It is new with Holy Fury

[F'Tagn]

Originally posted by p.sahlstroem:

You are aware of the "Border Dispute" Casus Belli? It allows you to declare war for bordering counties at a hefty cost in prestige, gold and standing with everyone. It is new with Holy Fury

I actually didn't know about that one, haven't played with Holy Fury yet since I'm currently playing a game on an older version of CK2 for the sake of a couple mods I have. That's a very nice addition, however, I am cautious about the "hefty cost". I hope it's not too ridiculous.

[eastcoastceo]

I think you need Jade Dragon DLC to get the "Border Dispute" CB. If you have that DLC, you can use "Border Dispute" against any realm that borders you, not just those in Asia. It takes a decent amount of prestige, so you won't be able to declare it at game start, but after a while, it can be helpful.

https://ck2.paradoxwikis.com/Casus_Belli#Border_Dispute

[p.sahlstroem]

Originally posted by eastcoastceo:

I think you need Jade Dragon DLC to get the "Border Dispute" CB. If you have that DLC, you can use "Border Dispute" against any realm that borders you, not just those in Asia. It takes a decent amount of prestige, so you won't be able to declare it at game start, but after a while, it can be helpful.

https://ck2.paradoxwikis.com/Casus_Belli#Border_Dispute

Ah, I got the Jade Dragon at the same time as Holy Fury, that's why I got confused about what DLC added it :-)

[p.sahlstroem]

Just checked ingame, attacking one of my neighbouring provinces without a claim would cost me 300 piety , 1475 gold -25 opinion with the pope and -15 opinion with everybody else. That would be me as a king and the target being an empire. No idea if the ranks affect the cost. Hope that helps :-)

Edited to add

Rank makes a huge difference, checked out what it would cost to attack a border county in a kingdom and the cost had dropped to 306 gold. And the opinion hit is only with characters of the same religion as the target

[Doc]

With Jade Dragon as an independent count against another count when the duchy title has not been formed, there's also the 'Ducal Pretender' war, which is basically 'fabricating will take a while so instead here's the option to declare war at your convenience'. It greatly speeds up the process of getting to that ducal level without needing to worry about claims, making the early game in underdeveloped areas relatively easier.
Of course, if you're playing as a vassal inside a larger kingdom, it's of no use since it's generally unusable.

[Azunai]

you should take a look at Europa Universalis (another game by Paradox).

It uses a similar system of casus belli but it's more straightforward. you can basically just set you spy network in motion and they accumulate points that can be used to buy a fabricated claim to start a war. also, the peace treaty system is more flexible. for example you can also demand stuff that you didn't have a claim for but occupied during the war anyway

CK2 is basically the roleplay-heavy and much less conquest oriented branch of the family and EU4 is the straightforward map painting simulator.

[F'Tagn]

I've thought about giving Europa Universalis a try, but at the same time, I love the more character-oriented roleplaying aspect of CK2. I just also like being a warmonger lol. What you said about being able to demand stuff that wasn't part of the claim during a treaty is pretty great though and also more realistic. I'll have to give it another look at some time.

[galadon3]

Invite claimant to title you want -> give claimant county in your capital duchy -> press claimants claim in war -> use intrigue-tab to revoke county you gave him -> have him revolt -> beat him -> take away the county you gave him AND the title you claimed for him.

Its an easy way to get a casus belli, costs nearly nothing... CK2 has by far enough ways to get CBs you just need to know how to use them.

[F'Tagn]

Yeah, I know about that. Like I said though, that's a lot of loopholes to jump through for just a single county, even if it's not hard. Not to mention, that doesn't work if you decide to start as a count.

[galadon3]

Originally posted by JRProjectA2:

Yeah, I know about that.

Funny you don't mention it in that wall of text you put there, but I guess it doesn't fit your narrative.

Like I said though, that's a lot of loopholes to jump through for just a single county, even if it's not hard.

So you said something about a thing you didn't mention....again: funny.
And no its not "a lot of loopholes", its just using the systems the game offers. And honestly if you are so bored by the being a count-phase: start as a Duke.

Not to mention, that doesn't work if you decide to start as a count

I like to actually accomplish things in a single lifetime (Ya know, kinda like real life rulers and conquerers), to be able to actually seize power and rise within my own kingdom or forge my own

Hmm funny (the third), on my way to forging a kingdom I usually stop being a count pretty early and guess what; then it works.

Besides, the number of reallife rulers and conquerors who went from count to king in a single lifetime is rather limited.

[Gamer de esquerda]

Yeah, vanilla CK2 pretty much sucks with CB, especially if you are a christian and trying to war against other christians.
After you have a decent realm, I recommend you invite claimants to your realm, give them a small county or even a castle, and then claim war on their name. As long as their new rank is lower than yours, they will remain your vassal, and you can claim counties, duchies, and even whole kingdoms if you're an emperor. Also marry your sons with daughters of other countries so he'll get claims on them. A claimant on your dynasty will automatically become your vassal if you press the claim (as long as his rank is below yours, of course)

But if you really want some fun, play as a pagan germanic. You'll never have to worry about casus belli again.

[F'Tagn]

Lol, did I strike a nerve or something, galadon3? Get over yourself, guy. This a harmless discussion, no narrative or agenda b.s. here.

Inviting a claimant to your court (No doubt needing to at least bribe/persuade him/her first to do so), landing him, then pushing said claim is a lot of loopholes just to take a county right next to me that is owned by another vassal of the same rank. Not to mention, that's impossible to do if you're a count and also not as easy you make it out to be since, depending on your game rules, it's not necessarily always easy to get people to join your court. And, of course, there might not be a claimant for the little baby county that you want. So, no, it is a lot of loopholes for something so simple.

I'm not bored by being a count at all. Like I said, I enjoy making a custom character and rising from lowly count to King, that's usually how I play. I just wish it was easier to war without mods or changing .ini's, hence why I started the discussion. But good argument though, "hurr durr just don't be a count".

Listen, I get it. I offended you slightly by critiquing your favorite game and you fanboy'd. That's cool, we can disagree. But buck up. No reason to get all cringey.

[F'Tagn]

Originally posted by ANTIFASCISTA:

But if you really want some fun, play as a pagan germanic. You'll never have to worry about casus belli again.

Yeah, Germanic Pagan was my last game and it was super fun. I allied with Denmark very early on and it was pretty much smooth sailing from there. And, of course, my current game is as a christian trying to fight other christians.

[PAXO]

The person that started this discussion has hit the nail on the head about the slowness of attacking counties next to you after three of your different rulers have died. I am totally bored with this game as it is almost impossible to do anything for damn decades. intend to bin it,rubbish.