Is it worth creating excess duchies and kingdoms?

[Lynx]

Hey there,

I'm currently in quite a long play through where I have managed to create the Holy Roman empire and now own a massive chunk of Europe. I have lots of vassals, however, I have the ability to create 12 new titles which include a couple of kingdoms and all the rest duchies. Is there really much of a benefit to spending money to create these titles or is it better off to leave them un created/claimed?

Thanks for your time!

[Varainger]

Apart from the little prestige bonus per title...

Kingdoms as vassals make sense to reduce the direct vassal number.
Dukes as vassals when you can't create the respective kingdom.

[Lynx]

Yeah I understand. I double checked and I actually have the ability to create 4 Kingdoms. Would you say creating all 4 to decrease my amount of direct vassals would be good or only create 1 or 2 would be better?

[al_x_ator2411]

Creating them yourself would also help give them away to people of your choice, like close relatives (if they are already landed in the de jure eares).

[TVMAN]

Originally posted by Harry:

Yeah I understand. I double checked and I actually have the ability to create 4 Kingdoms. Would you say creating all 4 to decrease my amount of direct vassals would be good or only create 1 or 2 would be better?

Are you having problems with the vassals in those de jure kingdoms? If so, it's pretty useful to give the kingdom title to one of the vassals who likes you so they can deal with those unruly vassals instead. That way you can focus on pleasing that one king vassal and keeping him happy instead of dividing your attention between a small army of troublesome dukes who might team up to revolt.

Also if you're running up against your vassal limit and plan on expanding your empire further, then yeah consolidating some duchies under a king is a good way to do so.

[Jerubius]

Should be noted that each kingdom has its own laws, and those laws only apply to vassals in the de jure kingdom. It's 100 years for territory to become de jure part of a new kingdom, and those outside are not subject to laws restricting vassal wars or inheritance restrictions and so forth. Also, if I recall, dukes can not be transferred under a vassal who is not their de jure liege. This can complicate things when you are an empire and need to lower your direct vassals.

[Ledabot]

The only time I'd make a bunch of duchies or kingdoms would be if I needed just a tiiiny bit more to get to create an empire. Honestly though, i'd probably be better off just waiting and growing my kingdom from inside more.

[Landstander]

i disband all my kingdoms once i became an empire. no need. jsut creates wars and unhappy vassals who want teh title

[Lynx]

Thanks guys for all your comments. I will take this all on board and use it to help me play better. I hope this discussion has also helped anyone who wasn't sure like me.

[ChaosKhan]

The only real reason to create new titles is to reduce the number of direct vassals so you can get more counties through centralization for yourself. Kingdoms should be served for last, because those titles have completely different scopes than duchies. Only ever create kingdoms if you have a firm grasp on the mechanics and really require those so you can hold multiple empires.
Advantages:
- kingdoms have a very concentrated power base and can fend for themselves in most cases, be it rebellions, raiders or adventurers
- they can expand on they own into neighboring countries very successfully, spreading out your empires territories at a far faster rate than dukes ever would
- they are relatively easy to manage because you have only a few vassals to manage at all

Disadvantages:
- they are very powefull and can dethrone you easily if they slip out of your grasp, as they have far better financial standing and levies than a couple dukes, meaning more mercs and troops to fight
- should they ever win a war for independance, you won't be able to vassalize them again diplomatically
- if you create more empire titles, the kings will desire those and you'll have a lot of trouble because of that
- while dukes tend to struggle in wrestling more counties for themselves, kings tend to be strong enough to do it at an alarming rate (so even if you weaken them by retracting their county titles, they'll recover pretty fast from it)

[Shai-Hulud]

If you think any of your vassals are strong enough to create the titles themselves you might as well beat them to it.

Dunno your exact situation but viceroy kingdoms are great.

[Vladolf Putler]

As Empire, you want only kings as your direct vassals, apart the duchies in your home kingdom, but you can also give it away and leave only your home duchy, but its kinda risky as you may have not enough power to counter factions against you.
Also having powerful direct vassals as kings is good for empire expansion, you dont have to fight anymore and your empire will grow, your vassal kings will be constantly conquering new lands. If you have only dukes, they may be too weak to conquer your neighbors.

Also its good for empire management.

The always working pattern is:
You are duke > you want counts as your direct vassals
You are king > you want dukes as your direct vassals
you are emperor > you want kings as your direct vassals.

its also good to have as much counties as possible and not just one county with 5 castles you directly own. One county and all objects in it to be your vassals. -for best income and army

[Jerubius]

Originally posted by Bashar al-Assad:

As Empire, you want only kings as your direct vassals, apart the duchies in your home kingdom, but you can also give it away and leave only your home duchy, but its kinda risky as you may have not enough power to counter factions against you.
Also having powerful direct vassals as kings is good for empire expansion, you dont have to fight anymore and your empire will grow, your vassal kings will be constantly conquering new lands. If you have only dukes, they may be too weak to conquer your neighbors.

Also its good for empire management.

The always working pattern is:
You are duke > you want counts as your direct vassals
You are king > you want dukes as your direct vassals
you are emperor > you want kings as your direct vassals.

its also good to have as much counties as possible and not just one county with 5 castles you directly own. One county and all objects in it to be your vassals. -for best income and army

This is true with Conclave, as you have many tools to control powerful vassals. Without Conclave, your only real tool to protect yourself from powerful vassals is marriage alliances, and not only does that limit external influence, but it introduces long term issues of granting internal threats claims usurp you. As an emperor without Conclave, you mostly want dukes and counts, as they have minimal ability to grow in power, have very little they can do against you individually, and can easily be defeated individually if they do try to band against you.

Also, while more counties does give you more vassals, and in theory more gold, it definitely gives you fewer troops, and the gold loss isn't that significant. If you are independent, you get a 50% levy bonus in your capital. That alone makes a huge difference levy size, but the marshal train troops is also a county wide buff, which significantly increases its value for each additional holding you control in your capital. With a good marshal, you can be nearly doubling your levy size just by stacking castles in your capital. The same applies to the steward collect taxes action. You can significantly increase income by directly controlling extra holdings in your capital. Furthermore, having a large army is far more important than being able to field a large army for long, as the AI considers their army size versus your army size when making decisions, meaning you have far more time to tackle factions and suffer fewer external attacks just by having a bigger army. This added stability means you can devote more of your income towards building up the realm, and maintaining relations so you can pass laws sooner. This makes it easier to tax your vassals heavier, and all in turn compounds for higher economic and military power.