Best pagan reformation choices?

[Magis]

What options do you think is best for each, norse, slavic, tengri, etc? Having a hard time picking between prepared invasions and Meritocracy, either epic land grabs, or being able to designate best heir..

[Squid]

I'd suggest backing up a copy of your save game at the point where you can reform the religion and then trying a few combinations. Stuff that sounds good at first sometimes turns out to be not so great.

Something I found disappointing with meritocracy is that it doesn't override Gavelkind succession if you're still Tribal. So you'll want to plan some kind of succession option, either by being Feudal before you reform or by picking Agnatic Clans or Enatic Clans for access to open succession. The open succession mode is one of the best succession types in my opinion.

If you're a Nomad (usually Tengri) then succession isn't as important because Nomad succession is already powerful.

Also, check these out for hidden reformation combos: https://ck2.paradoxwikis.com/Pagans#Synergies

[pplr1]

I would say go with the form of paganism you like best. I like Romuva and Suomensusko the best but I don't have much experience with Bon but I think I'll try them soon.

[Lady Aelora]

Originally posted by Squid:

I'd suggest backing up a copy of your save game at the point where you can reform the religion and then trying a few combinations. Stuff that sounds good at first sometimes turns out to be not so great.

Something I found disappointing with meritocracy is that it doesn't override Gavelkind succession if you're still Tribal. So you'll want to plan some kind of succession option, either by being Feudal before you reform or by picking Agnatic Clans or Enatic Clans for access to open succession. The open succession mode is one of the best succession types in my opinion.

If you're a Nomad (usually Tengri) then succession isn't as important because Nomad succession is already powerful.

Also, check these out for hidden reformation combos: https://ck2.paradoxwikis.com/Pagans#Synergies

Another thing I realized too late was that meritocracy does NOT allow you to choice girls if you have agnatic-cognatic like previous versions. It explicitly says in the wiki, not the game itself, that even if you have ONLY girls you are not allowed to choose between them. Rather infuriating due to lack of communication. What is the point of agnatic-cognatic meritocracy if you cant choose the girls to inherit but they can normally????? Sorry quick, attractive, zealous, ambitious, born in the purple daughter, daddy may be the sacred Ashina temporal ruler of Rome but he cant pick you cause uhhh... rules? Might as well forgo one whole religious doctrine for the rest of the game and just go to imperial elective... *sigh*

[Random]

I would suggest against prepared invasions/warmongering as it leads to rather unstable vassals, and generally does not benefit you personally as the leige as you will far exceed the maximum realm size requirement. So if you like seeing dukes in the middle of other kingdoms take distant kingdoms and break out of their vassal king resulting in non stop dejure wars and infighting, then sure prepared invasions are for you (masochist).

Dogmatic Nature + Unrelenting Doctrine is a pretty powerful combination as it gives a flat 10% attack bonus to all units as well as makes your religion MA always high meaning easier polythesising, not to mention the removal of pagan attrition from your reformed religion, allowing you to continue ripping pagan lands to shreds without melting.

Unyielding Nature + Stability is another very good combination. Stability is a very good choice as you can spend 150 piety every 3 years to permanently boost a stat on your character (or heir) resulting in some prety god tier rulers, with the added bonus of no short reign penalty so as the name suggests very stable realms. And unyielding gives a whopping 80% defense stat increase to all battles inside your borders, meaning any prepared invasions or hosts or even external realms attacking you will be utterly shreded by your armies when fighting inside your lands, allowing for almost guaranteed david vs goliath war wins.

You can choose the second doctrine based on your preferred flavour but one of the 2 above combinations are highly recommended.

So pair it with bloodthirsty for sacrificial fun. ancestor veneration for saint bloodlines and their benefits. divine marriage to benefit your uegenics project of acquiring external bloodlines and the countless cousin/sister wives you will end up taking as your son. Animistic for 5% morale damage buff to all units and a powerful personal buff on characters that turn 16, like +2 health or increased fertility, or even higher plot % for murdering vassal obstacles.

As others stated some doctrines look good on the surface but are lacklustre in practice...

Meritocracy = great with primo/ultimo but trash with all other succession or redundant in alot of governmental cases.

Agnatic clans = no external bloodlines due to removal of matrilleneal marraige, gg holy fury feature...

Enatic clans = the reverse of agnatic, you can get bloodlines but you cant pass them on as they are patrilineal for the vast majority which then means you need to basically marry your daughter(heir) to your sons almost every generation to keep bloodlines... rather terrible.

Sea-bound is trash, as you should never be using your own ships anyways because vassal ships have no upkeep so -90% cost of 0 = 0... pointless. The river navigation is the only loss and this only has any value if you are in scandanavia/rus area and want to raid the med instead of going to england.

Polygamy is okay, but most pagan religions when reformed can still take concubines so all it really results in is the removal of a very minor debuff of concubine kid... basically pointless.

Astrology is rather Meh, its a decent buff but it also results in alot of unecessary hate over people of different star signs so you can end up triggering vassals simply because you were born in a different month...

Haruspicy is probably the most annoying choice in the game, and it just ends up costing you cash for very minor buffs EVERY WAR and even if you choose the most expensive option it can fail and the buff from the cheapest version is just as good as the more costly ones, utter trash.

Religious tax is pointless as it only applies in areas you havent prolythesised and most of these have the recently conquered debuff so they dont exactly rake in the cash anyways, pointless.

Daring is basically border gore central, see previous explaination as to why its useless.

That about sums up your choices, the various pagan religions have their own unique doctrine which tends to combine a couple of the others together, but they can be lack lustre due to the above terrible options. EG: sons of ragnarok, prepared invasions + cheaper boats... yay! *cough*

But with that said some are pretty damn good. Aztec for example and I guess slavic for the free boat trait along side stability, also tengri is solid with unrelenting + polygamy.

Here is a complete list provided by Paradox: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/holy-fury-reformation-doctrine-list.1115209/

Survivor of Ukko: Religion is Resistant to Proselytizing, Short Reign Penalty is Disabled (Suomenusko Exclusive)
Children of Perun: Fleet can Navigate through Major Rivers, Short Reign Penalty is Disabled, Ruler Can Spend Piety to increase Courtier Attribute(Slavic Exclusive)
Eternal Riders: Ignore Defensive Attrition, Army Offensive Bonus ,Polygamy is Allowed (Tengri Exculsive)
Defenders of Dievas: Religion is Resistant to Proselytizing, Enable Eldership Succession Law(Romuva Exclusive)
Sons of Ragnarok: Prepared Invasions are Allowed ,Fleet can Navigate through Major Rivers. Ship Maintenance Reduced to 10%, AI Looter prefer coastal counties(Germanic Exclusive)
Totem-Guardians: Ruler can order to "Take the Vows" , Extra Tax on Infidels, Allow Eldership Succession Law (African Exclusive)
Dawnbreakers: Polygamy is Allowed, Close-Kin Marriage is Allowed, Close-Kin Marriage amongst nobility is considered a Divine Union (Zun Exclusive)
Harmonious: Heir Designation is Allowed, Absolute Cognatic is Enforced, No Penalty for Female Ruler, Disallow Close-Kin Marriage (Bön Exclusive)
Invaders: Prisoners of different religion can be sacrificed for Piety, Sacrificing prisoners unlocks special traits and actions, Ignore Defensive Attrition, Army Offensive Bonus , Fleet can Navigate through Major Rivers. Ship Maintenance Reduced to 10% (Aztec Exclusive)
Civilized: Rulers can choose to gain Sympathy with another faith by decisions, Heir Designation is Allowed, Ruler do not receive Opinion penalties for raised vassal levies (Hellenism Exclusive)

Look at the above and see if any have all the win traits or a few fails mixed in, and see if you want their bonus doctrines over picking a more stable single choice.