Ireland in the Viking age... How?

[xocorret]

Hi.
I am not all that new to CK2 but this is something that irks me:
It is said that Ireland is one of the easiest starts for beginners - which I can not confirm. Every game so far, Vikings just roflstomp Great Britan within the first 10 years.
If you dont end up with a super capable steward, you have no chance at all to unite all the Irish (for example) in time to put up some resistance. These Vikings just spawn 5K troops, call their vassals (which never disagree) and wipe all the islands.

I got alliances with Scotland, Wessex and Mercia - all in vain.
So how is that supposed to work for beginners at all?

I also tried biding my time, waiting for the viking realms to fall apart due to Gavelkind - which also never happens.
So... how?

[that guy]

Easiest way to become king of Ireland starting in 867 is to play as one of the norse pagans.

[Fritz Bittenfeld]

Originally posted by bri:

The earlier start dates usually end up with a lot of wackiness and megablobs that aren't particularly easy to deal with as a newer player. You're better off starting inside one of the blobs where you'll probably be safe than as an independent ruler as a newb in the early dates.

That said, if you know some of the exploitable stuff available, especially with DLC, then you can certainly turn a tribal Irish county into a powerhouse.

They're fun to see implode. Never have I been happier to see Muslim blobs collapse than my Asturias run from the Viking Age start. Now I guess I just need to unify Europe through "Peaceful" means.

[SKull]

Originally posted by xocorret:

Ah, I see, thanks for the clarification.

On a side note: Still any good strategies to get Ireland going in the earlier times?

The early start is super hard almost anywhere, except if you can transcend as a Viking or do something about France early on. Karloman almost always dies really young, even for nio apparent reason due to "poor health". When he does you are at imminent risk of Charles forming the Frankish/HRE empire and the Blob of Blobs. That too will usually fragment, but will also tend to keep reforming, causing you massive problems no matter where you start, including Ireland. Sometimes France will collapse on its own early on though, and the empire never forms. If you're in Ireland this is clearly what you want. But because it is tribal this is probably one of the hardest places to deal with the Vikings. The only way is to unify and conquer lands in Wales and Scotland, plus isolated lands in England, until you're strong enough to wipe out raiding armies as they land.

This whole issue with France is why I really like playing as a French duke in the early start, so I can work to destroy the empire before it forms. If you can do that you will get a very chaotic map with four or five Frances, strong states in Poland, Italy, Bavaria and Saxony and occasionally even AI unification in Britain. Assassinating Charles is the best way, although it is sometimes quite hard. Prepare to be caught and burned at the stake a few times. Like from almost everywhere else, though, this is very hard to influence from Ireland.

[kazaddum]

Originally posted by SKull:

Originally posted by xocorret:

Ah, I see, thanks for the clarification.

On a side note: Still any good strategies to get Ireland going in the earlier times?

The early start is super hard almost anywhere, except if you can transcend as a Viking or do something about France early on. Karloman almost always dies really young, even for nio apparent reason due to "poor health". When he does you are at imminent risk of Charles forming the Frankish/HRE empire and the Blob of Blobs. That too will usually fragment, but will also tend to keep reforming, causing you massive problems no matter where you start, including Ireland. Sometimes France will collapse on its own early on though, and the empire never forms. If you're in Ireland this is clearly what you want. But because it is tribal this is probably one of the hardest places to deal with the Vikings. The only way is to unify and conquer lands in Wales and Scotland, plus isolated lands in England, until you're strong enough to wipe out raiding armies as they land.

This whole issue with France is why I really like playing as a French duke in the early start, so I can work to destroy the empire before it forms. If you can do that you will get a very chaotic map with four or five Frances, strong states in Poland, Italy, Bavaria and Saxony and occasionally even AI unification in Britain. Assassinating Charles is the best way, although it is sometimes quite hard. Prepare to be caught and burned at the stake a few times. Like from almost everywhere else, though, this is very hard to influence from Ireland.

Even the blob of blobs may fracture when the player is involved. Quite easy as long as Gavelkind is dominant.

[Valsalan]

The reason Ireland was called the easy start was because, in the early days of CK2 you only needed 50% of the counties in a dutchy to from the dutch title. Because Ireland has a lot of two county dutchies this meant you could easily form claims on a lot of the island simply by being the first person to form most of the dutchy titles, which gave you an easy CB on a good chunk of the island. You will notice that in the current game it takes 51% of the counties in a dutchy to form it, this is for game balance. Since this change Ireland is no longer the easiest start in the game, but it has kept this reputation due to people saying that it was the noob start, without knowing this fact about the early game.

[Malvastor]

I'd say Ireland is still a pretty easy start in 769. You don't have any major threats- the Great British states tend to stay in Great Britain- and you've got enough time before the Vikings start invading to consolidate a decent amount of Ireland under you personal control before they arrive. Once they do, throw your weight behind whoever they attack and you can usually keep Great Britain Christian.

[bri]

Originally posted by Valsalan:

The reason Ireland was called the easy start was because, in the early days of CK2 you only needed 50% of the counties in a dutchy to from the dutch title. Because Ireland has a lot of two county dutchies this meant you could easily form claims on a lot of the island simply by being the first person to form most of the dutchy titles, which gave you an easy CB on a good chunk of the island. You will notice that in the current game it takes 51% of the counties in a dutchy to form it, this is for game balance. Since this change Ireland is no longer the easiest start in the game, but it has kept this reputation due to people saying that it was the noob start, without knowing this fact about the early game.

Uhm, no. It has always been 51+% to create a duchy title. The map of Ireland used to have 15 provinces in 5 duchies (1 * 4, 1 * 2, and 3 * 3) meaning plenty of options where a single claim allowed you to become a duke even if you didn't choose to start with one of the two available dukes. After that it was a matter of a couple more claims to become king and then the rest of the island was quickly yours.

The 1066 Irish counts are still pretty noob friendly because there really aren't huge threats nearby AND you don't have to deal with the vassal issues inherent in bigger starts. You can quickly become a duke (if not already playing one) and then king with just a couple succesful claims and wars giving you a little kingdom to learn how to deal with vassal management where your vassals are inclined towards loyalty by being all right culture and religion. Scotland usually has issues getting their act together which means you really only have a worry if England is interested but they usually have bigger problems than messing with you.

The earlier starts are not so noob friendly because you have to deal with being tribal and transitioning away from it and, more importantly, the ridiculous OP that is Norse Germanic pagans...

[Meewec]

Originally posted by bri:

Uhm, no. It has always been 51+% to create a duchy title. The map of Ireland used to have 15 provinces in 5 duchies (1 * 4, 1 * 2, and 3 * 3) meaning plenty of options where a single claim allowed you to become a duke even if you didn't choose to start with one of the two available dukes. After that it was a matter of a couple more claims to become king and then the rest of the island was quickly yours.

no, it used to be 50% for create and usurp. it got changed because it was making the ai to constantly steal titles from eachother

[Yaldabaoth]

Originally posted by that guy:

Easiest way to become king of Ireland starting in 867 is to play as one of the norse pagans.

And that is historically accurate.

[BatMart]

Originally posted by xocorret:

Ah, I see, thanks for the clarification.

On a side note: Still any good strategies to get Ireland going in the earlier times?

you can "cheat" using the ruler designer create a viking to put in your ireland county.

I, personally, never had problems with vikings in ireland in early ages, maybe I'm lucky...

The thing is going from count to duke as soon as you possibly can...Stack 200G and keep that amount on hand AT ALL TIMES, then put all the rest of your money on holding upgrades, focus on the ones giving you heavy infantry.

Those 200G will be used to hire mercs if you ever have problems you can't solve with your own army.

[kaiyl_kariashi]

That was never the reason for newbie Island. There are plenty of 2 county duchies all over the world and yet Ireland was the best place.

Getting a free claim every other conquest was nice, but hardly nessecary to the learning experience and much like over-reliance on Fabricating makes people not explore other options of expansion, which was why it was changed. they wanted people to use marriage, claiments, pope, etc more, as that's the intended method of Christian expansion within Christiandom.

Because it's isolated, everyone is small, and Scotland/England/Wales are usually too busying tearing themselves or each other apart to mess with you. (Ireland has been Newbie Island since CK1 for that very reason).

And also gives you an isolated place to practice going from a Count all the way up to an Empire without much anyone else can do against you.


And nothing has changed to alter that in regard to the default start date. If you want to be a Duke immediately, play the Duke of Munster. if you want to work up to it, play anyone else.

[juan_h]

I've done an 867 Irish start. It's harder than the 1066 start in some respects but easier in others.

The obvious problem with 867 is the Vikings. I find that it's best to start in either the south or west of Ireland in order to put as much space between yourself and the Vikings as possible. Expand at the expense of your Irish neigbors until you can form the Kingdom of Ireland. At that point, the Vikings should no longer be an existential threat. Of course sometimes you just get unlucky and some Viking chief stomps you. There isn't always a lot that you can do about it. The great thing abut the 867 start is that if you can last until the Vikings convert to Catholicism you've pretty much got it made. My experience has been that the AI is unlikely to form the Kingdom of England on its own, meaning that you'll have no serious rivals for the domination of the British Isles.

By contrast, the 1066 start is initially much more gentle. There are no hordes of Norsemen who can use the Conquest or Holy War CBs on you. It will be much harder, however, to form the Empire of Britannia because England exists. It's in your way, it's much, much bigger than you, and it will probably absorb Scotland if you don't get there first. You'll have to fight harder and be sneakier than you would if you started in 867. Not only that, you'll have less time to work with.

All things considered, I think that for a new player, one who's still learning the mechanics of the game, the 1066 start is better. It's a much more relaxing and much less frustrating experience. The wonderful thing about Crusader Kings II is that not forming an empire is not the same thing as not winning. This is a game where you get to pick your own goals. The game will tell you when you've lost, but you get to decide when you've won.

[King Amadoow]

I never started in ireland I started in jerusalem or aragon first lol

[xocorret]

So, I tried another 867 start as Capua. This actually works out well so far as I managed to jump on Sardinia and form the Kingdom of Sardinia and Corsica.

Meanwhile in Ireland: 3 Viking factions, Wessex, Mercia, 3 Irish counts and the Magyar (WTF!?) struggle for control over this little island...

The best 867 start I had so far was *drumroll* Pomerania. The combiation of feudal and slavic allowed to steamroll the east, grab Poland, Lithuania, Bohemia, Moravia, reform the slavic religion and blob to my hearts content. Meanwhile I survived four Crusades against me and reached the eastern map border.