Building Temples as Pagan

[spamfilter32]

So, I keep seeing the advice to never build any holdings whatsoever when playing as a pagan, but I am wondering what the downside would be to building a temple? As an example, building a temple in a county with 3 empty holding would reduce my levy from 150% to 100% and base income from 1.25 to .75 income.

But with a temple I could add the temples levies to my army, which includes heavy infantry which should be worth the slight loss in skirmisher levies the county provides naturally. Pluse the Temple should generate its income as well.

Is there a downside I am not seeing? If so, what is it and how bad of a downside is it?

[Xander Tyrann]

From my experience a small amount of heavy infantry isn't really worth it to tribal vassals. Battles are usually won or lost in the skirmish phase due to the abundance of light infantry. Also raiding is a main mechanic for income as tribal and for that you need numbers rather than strength.

I prefer to conquer a fuedal county then build a tribal holding there, set that as the main holding and get levies and tax income from the city and temples already built. Then concentrate on troop numbers in your primary duchy with all the troop bonuses.

[Azunai]

when you switch from tribal to feudal you get a temple and a city for free in all your demesne counties (if they have at least 2 empty slots). so it may not be worth spending ~400 (?) wealth on a temple holding that you'd get for 0 wealth once you convert.

if you're sitting on a pile of money and don't know what to spend it on, temples may be worth it anyway. especially if you don't plan to convert to feudal anytime soon.

[Khan Boyzitbig of Mercia]

I would only recommend building temples on unsettled holy sites of your faith. Which only really applies to tengri nomads.

[Mr.M]

Originally posted by Azunai:

when you switch from tribal to feudal you get a temple and a city for free in all your demesne counties (if they have at least 2 empty slots). so it may not be worth spending ~400 (?) wealth on a temple holding that you'd get for 0 wealth once you convert.

if you're sitting on a pile of money and don't know what to spend it on, temples may be worth it anyway. especially if you don't plan to convert to feudal anytime soon.

Its not even worth it if you have tons of cash - since all your holdings need to be improved once you switched to feudal + you want to buy at least the income buildings for your cities/temples or they will sit around 100 years before they have finished even 5 or 6 buildings.

So yeah. 100% not worth it.

[Azunai]

yeah a temple could take 50-100 years or so to pay back investment. IIRC the first holding only costs 400 wealth and a temple should probably pay something like 5 gold per year in taxes. the bishop will spend some of the rest of their income (ie. the part that they don't pay as taxes) on upgrades and once they upgraded the church, the holding also provides some piety to the liege.

probably still not worth it unless you're going to stay tribal for another century or more.

[that guy]

Unless it's been upgraded a bit, a temple will give you less than 100 in vassal levies. Maybe 30 of them will be heavy infantry. If you intend on holding it yourself, the wrong holding malus will ensure that the levies will be even smaller.

If your ruler is at all decent, the loss of that one holding slot probably drops your personal levies in that county by quite a bit more than 100. That's assuming you're tribal, since feudal rulers don't really care about the number of empty holding slots in a county.

Also as others have said, it will take 100 years for taxes from the temple to pay back its cost. Converting from tribal to feudal would have given that temple to you for free.

[kazaddum]

Originally posted by spamfilter32:

So, I keep seeing the advice to never build any holdings whatsoever when playing as a pagan, but I am wondering what the downside would be to building a temple? As an example, building a temple in a county with 3 empty holding would reduce my levy from 150% to 100% and base income from 1.25 to .75 income.

But with a temple I could add the temples levies to my army, which includes heavy infantry which should be worth the slight loss in skirmisher levies the county provides naturally. Pluse the Temple should generate its income as well.

Is there a downside I am not seeing? If so, what is it and how bad of a downside is it?

From a cost/benefit point of view it's not worth it. However it's worth it from an religious authority point of view. Tengri holy sites don't have temples thus only offer half the authority. Each temple build also adds 1% authority for 10 years. This can be very usefull for reforming in many cases (Zunists for example)

[SKull]

You can often float money as a pagan because just two building types require gold. And building temples increase your piety and religious authority if you want to reform.

[Zsrai]

Originally posted by SKull:

You can often float money as a pagan because just two building types require gold. And building temples increase your piety and religious authority if you want to reform.

They also cut your taxes (not a big deal) and your troop numbers (a much bigger deal) because they take up an empty slot. Considering you a get a temple and, if the county has enough empty slots, a city for free on changing to Feudal I would almost never bother building a church just because. Keep the cash for mercs and bribes to ease the transition from Tribal to Feudal instead.

I'd skip building temples unless you are desperate for that MA (I'd just raid and burn down other churches, honestly), Zunist (since you can't raid), or if I'm building a temple in a Holy Site that doesn't have one yet (only Tengri IIRC).

[SKull]

Yesh, I only do it if I am chasing the MA as well. But they'll be extra churches when you reform though, right? Can't remember. If so it's not really wasted, just a bit delayed in its benefits.

[haidunia]

If you're reformed pagan it might be worth it, as the new Godi/Gydja will help convert that county (I'm assuming Germanic here, but goes for all pagan). If you want to give your religion a boost and beat down the catholics, or at least keep your counties your religion, in my opinion they're worth it. I once granted Zeeland (one of the Germanic holy sites) to the Gydja... she, and her successors, ended up conquerring most of England and half of Spain for me :D (I was Saxony at the time).

[Zsrai]

Originally posted by SKull:

Yesh, I only do it if I am chasing the MA as well. But they'll be extra churches when you reform though, right? Can't remember. If so it's not really wasted, just a bit delayed in its benefits.

I'm pretty sure that they are wasted. You get a freebie if there isn't one in the province but otherwise you lose out on it. Even if you get one anyways I'd still rather save up my cash for mercs and bribes, honestly. It's going to help you more than a barony you don't control.

Originally posted by haidunia:

If you're reformed pagan it might be worth it, as the new Godi/Gydja will help convert that county (I'm assuming Germanic here, but goes for all pagan). If you want to give your religion a boost and beat down the catholics, or at least keep your counties your religion, in my opinion they're worth it. I once granted Zeeland (one of the Germanic holy sites) to the Gydja... she, and her successors, ended up conquerring most of England and half of Spain for me :D (I was Saxony at the time).

Just grant it to a regular vassal and they will do the same thing.

[Mr.M]

Boys, its 95% wasted. 99% for any european pagan

The one and only thing one COULD see positive here is the +1% authority - rather bad trade for 400 gold tho.

You also get +1 for looting a temple of another religion - so just try to get roughly 30 ships and raid Ireland into the ground, ez reform.

[Zsrai]

Originally posted by MrMonokel2000:

Boys, its 100% wasted.

The one and only thing one COULD see positive here is the +1% authority - rather bad trade for 400 gold tho.

You also get +1 for looting a temple of another religion - so just try to get roughly 30 ships and raid Ireland into the ground, ez reform.

Nah, only about 95% wasted. Zunists can't raid so they need to do other things for the MA and building churches can help with that. It's also good for anyone with holy sites that don't have temples yet (mostly or all of the Steppe provinces). I can't think of anything besides those 2 uses, and even the latter isn't really necessary, it's just... nice? Zunists tend to need some help getting those last few % of MA though.

[Mr.M]

I never played zunists, but ye okay there might be one or another exception regarding the 1% authority.

Indeed rather 95% - for the european pagans it can also be used if one is stuck at 45+%