elective monarchy help

[Kralj Toskane]

I'm playing ck2 for 1 month and i have read many topics on elective and in every topic they say just keep low amount of dukes under your empire and have high diplomacy. But I dont get it how can I conquer, have a big empire, dont create duchies and still dont hit the vassal limit.. y i got it that diplo gives you vassal limit bonus but I have created almost all duchies in spain and I am at 41/42 limit. if i didnt created those duchies I would be at 90/42 or something like that. help pls

[Azunai]

elective is good for small realms where it's easy to rig the election. the point of keeping a low amount of dukes (or rather - electors) is to make it easier to keep them happy and increase the chance of getting your preferred kid elected. diplo is there to increase vassal opinion.

it's not a good succession law for large empires. just switch to primo or something and hand out titles if you want to keep expanding. you could basically condense the whole empire of hispania down to maybe 5 vassal kings/archdukes (i wouldn't give all of andalusia to a single guy) and keep them happy simply by giving them a seat on the council (if you play with conclave) or occasionally marry of some niece/nephew or excess daughters to get a non aggression pact with your strongest vassals.

[Kralj Toskane]

yeah I changed to primo and it was fine till i got hunchback heir :D

now i changed it to ultimo

if I have few kings in elective and they have dukes under them, does those dukes get to vote or just their leige?

[BatMart]

also of note. it's not diplo but stewardship that increases your desmene size.

[Azunai]

i think the dukes can vote regardless of whether they are your direct vassals or subvassals below a king.

if you don't hold all de-jure territory of your empire (ie. if one of the kingdoms was still independent), the dukes/kings of those titles can *also* vote, even though they aren't actually part of your realm. it's a weird situation, but will usually get fixed sooner or later since you have automatic de jure claims on their stuff, so they won't be independet for long.

one of the most annoying features of elective has always been the "too many elector titles" malus. if you hold more than 1 duchy, you get that -15 opinion or something (which sucks, since you'd normally be able to have 2 duchy titles without penalty). maybe that was changed at some point (haven't used it in a long time), but it used to work like that. ugh.

and it has the downside that everyone who is an eligible candidate can form a claimant faction. for most other laws, only people who actually have a claim can start such a faction.

[Kralj Toskane]

Originally posted by Azunai:

if you don't hold all de-jure territory of your empire (ie. if one of the kingdoms was still independent), the dukes/kings of those titles can *also* vote, even though they aren't actually part of your realm. it's a weird situation, but will usually get fixed sooner or later since you have automatic de jure claims on their stuff, so they won't be independet for long.

yeah I noticed it, I got half of Kingdom of Jeruselem, and there is only one duchy so i have elective... byzantine doux has the other half and he can vote too.
but if I get like all de jure parts of mauretania it will drift to empire of hispania in 100 years same as duchies do?

Originally posted by BatMart:

also of note. it's not diplo but stewardship that increases your desmene size.

I know, I was talking about vassal limit

[Azunai]

Originally posted by Steph Carry:

but if I get like all de jure parts of mauretania it will drift to empire of hispania in 100 years same as duchies do?

yes kingdoms can drift from their original de-jure empire into the de-facto holder empire same way duchies can drift between kingdoms

[Kralj Toskane]

Originally posted by Azunai:

Originally posted by Steph Carry:

but if I get like all de jure parts of mauretania it will drift to empire of hispania in 100 years same as duchies do?

yes kingdoms can drift from their original de-jure empire into the de-facto holder empire same way duchies can drift between kingdoms

man thanks for help :D
i have a question about titular kingdoms too.. they have de jure capital or duchy too? i was thinking about spliting remaining andalus into two or three kingdoms... and since my duchy of castille drifted into leon i thought i might give kingdom of castille (titular) to duke of cordoba and give him toledo and badajoz as vassals... will that kingdom change from titular to normal in 100 years? and if it does, will it still have links to duchy of castille ?

[Azunai]

you can give some duchies of andalus to a titular king and they will drift into that kingdom within 100 years, but in the meantime the king of andalus will still consider them his de jure, so he will frequently attack the other kings and take the duchies back.

so i guess the best solution might be to destroy andalusia and divide the land between titular castille, aragon and portucale or something. will be a bit chaotic but if it stabilizes, the duchies will become de jure part of the kingdoms you assigned.

a lot of stuff can happen in a century, though.

i do that kind of careful planning in some games, too. but then 100 years later i conquered all of europe and my vassal kings are all in primo and marry into each other and i always end up with a silly mix of multi- kingdom vassals. like the king of france and greece, or the king of poland and aquitaine. or jerusalem, galicia and croatia in one of my HRE games. or the shah of syria and perm and the shah of egypt and anatolia in my persia game.

all attempts to keep it nice and orderly tend to fail once you blob out of proportion :)

nowadays, i just let it happen and ignore it. there's an option to ask vassals to implement gavelind (i think it came with a DLC, don't remember which, though). that can be useful to split up super vassal blobs without violence. but ultimately, it doesn't matter all that much. as long as you have the troops and popularity to ignore factions, let them do their stuff.

[SKull]

Only two ways:

1: Never grant land to anyone who isn't a family member. Now a member of the dynasty will always win the elections because nobody else can run.

2: Grant all excess top titles to a single vassal. Mostly a short term fix, but works pretty well. A duke with five or six duchies but just one or two territories under his control can never rebel. Well, he can. But if you win even a single battle against him it's Endless Revolt time.
If you make sure to prune your vassal regularly this is actually surprisingly stable. And again, you win every election because only you and your vassal can vote. He still only gets one vote you see.

[Kralj Toskane]

Originally posted by Azunai:

you can give some duchies of andalus to a titular king and they will drift into that kingdom within 100 years, but in the meantime the king of andalus will still consider them his de jure, so he will frequently attack the other kings and take the duchies back.

I can keep title of andalusia for myself for 100 years or i can go absolute haha

edit: about that conquering of europe. I'm always threatening, even if i win only 1 little duchy from war, i get at least 15-20% threat...

Originally posted by SKull:

Only two ways:

1: Never grant land to anyone who isn't a family member. Now a member of the dynasty will always win the elections because nobody else can run.

2: Grant all excess top titles to a single vassal. Mostly a short term fix, but works pretty well. A duke with five or six duchies but just one or two territories under his control can never rebel. Well, he can. But if you win even a single battle against him it's Endless Revolt time.
If you make sure to prune your vassal regularly this is actually surprisingly stable. And again, you win every election because only you and your vassal can vote. He still only gets one vote you see.

nice, never thought of one duke with many duchy titles.

most of my realm is of my dinasty haha many inbreds... when i started i didnt know they will rather marry their aunt that isnt fertile than some french courtier or countes

[al_x_ator2411]

Giving the majority of elector titles to family members is the only way to dominate in elective. That is the only case I consider landing my prefered heir so they can vote for themselves too (or be eligible if not already).

[SKull]

Forgot to mention it, but one very positive aspect of this method that works very much in your favor is that the vassal will absolutely love you for handing him so many duchies, and will therefore usually be amazingly loyal. So he is basically a guard dog for all your counts who also helps you control the elections. It does tend to break down a little bit with sucessions and things eventually, so it probably works best if you make someone young the Mega-Duke. But if he rules for 50 years you have really bridged the gap to primo or seniority with that one vassal. And you never have to stop expanding during the elective phase.