Muslims are just more fun

[Philokèkos]

Muslims are OP, nothing new here... thing is, I'm not here to complain. Actually, I'd like adopt the reverse point of view : muslims are a zillion times more fun to play as, because they can do so much more.

Take those vanilla catholic feudal guys : their vassals are a pain in the ass, they are weak as hell, they are by far the poorest in making money (unless you create merchant republics, and yet by doing so you create even more angry vassals, with their "wrong government type" malus) and they have no soldiers. In the 769 start, after Charles creates the empire, he can barely summon 12k troops. Umayyad can summon 20k+ if they have low decadence. And they are waaaaaaay more rich. When one of your powerful dukes decides to mess with you, you cannot do aynthing about it unless you start plotting like there's no tomorrow, and it is far from reliable. In the end, catholic feudal blobs are just both very hard to form and even harder to maintain. Succession is such a pain I don't even want to talk about it, ultimo and primo are the better ones, sure, but basically they still all suck since you can't choose your successor like muslims do.

Now take the Iqta guys : they have jizya tax, which means their holy wars will make them veeeeeeeeery rich, they have theit decadence system which, when managed by players, insures tons of income and manpower, and they have FREE REVOCATION OF DUTCHIES. Yeah yeah, when one of your stupid vassals starts ennoying you, you just order him to ♥♥♥♥ off. If he does not, you kick him in the nuts, and NO ONE SAYS ANYTHING ABOUT IT. And perhaps the most powerful feature they got... open succession. Your firstborn is a jerk ? Just sire more. You have 34 sons and are wary about plotting and decadence ? You just don't land them, keep them in your court, restrict marriage and tadaaaaa... you have 100% chance of imprisonning them for free if they refuse to be straightenned up. In the oubliette, bye bye annoying kinsmen.

Bonuses : nicer events (pilgrimmage and their free stat points, humble or proud almost garanteed, brave likely to happen etc.), tons of piety with temple holdings, polygamy is lots of fun, invasions of neighboring kingdoms... I don't even see why I should ever play vanilla Europe again.

Exception might be the Byzzies because they have free revocation of duchies too and they can manage rival dynasties very nicely with blind/castrate. But that's about it.

Now I'm asking you... what do you think ? Does Feudal need some adjustments ?

[[BRE] Galand]

Wdym adjustments to Feudalism?
It's okay how it is now.

[Philokèkos]

It just feels like it doesn't compare with Iqta, that's the problem. Of course good players can do great things with Feudal, thing is same players could do twice as much with Iqta. That's the point. Again, I'm not complaining about muslims, it's the other way around : Feudal feels bland and dull after one played Iqta, or even byzzie.

[andrewdemayo]

I agree that it is generally easier - when small, the county conquest CB without having to wait for claims is great, and allows for far easier expansion, and in general, polygamy has meant that in my late game I can near-guarantee a good heir - (in my last Muslim game as Ibadi in Oman I have had several generations of genius rulers), and makes it easy to get non-aggression pacts and alliances as needed as one is never short of marriage slots. Oh, and raising crown authority with piety is far easier than getting my vassals to vote for it.

That said, it's not so good that the AI isn't able to mess things up royally, which means that you don't (usually) see them dominate overmuch, and honestly, challenge is a significant part of what I enjoy - having played as Zoroastrian makes being Catholic feel nice as same by compassion.

So while there are definitely some advantages to Iqta, I don't think there really needs to be changes - to be honest, I generally much prefer the challenge of managing feudal.

[IeShima]

First, what start date are you playing from? In the earlier start dates the Muslim Caliphates get huge advantages, such as having nearly every province have multiple holdings that are already upgraded. This results in the huge tax and troop bonuses that they seem to have.

Second, the immediate enemies that the Caliphates face are either incredibly weak or one step away from internal collapse, and they are all non-Muslim nations. This allows for rapid expansion very quickly very early on through religious holy wars for entire duchies.

Third, the Muslims at the earliest dates start with the largest Empire (outside of the Roman Empire) already formed and under their control, as well as two of the wealthier kingdoms of the Persian Empire to boot. This gives them another huge advantage compared to European nations, who only have kingdoms at best.

Fourth, the Caliph starts with several powerful artifacts right off the bat in the earlier dates, notably the Seal of Mohammed, which shortens the short reign penalty by 5 years, and the Sword of Mohammed. There are more powerful artifacts available to the religions, but most of them are hidden and those that aren’t are scattered across the map.

Finally, the Muslim nations get a massive tech bonus, allowing for better holdings, better troops, better tax rates, and better chances of winning wars.

By the original start date, 1066, they don’t have most of these bonuses. The Abyssids have collapsed already, their tech bonus is nearly on par if not surpassed by Europe, the holdings of Europe are better than those of the earlier dates, and the Crusades are 24 years away, compared to the Jihads which are over 100 years away.

[Philokèkos]

I think you missed the point, I'm not at all talking about blobbing capabilities (although it's related of course) but about the intrinsic qualities of the Iqta system, which gives much more room, not only for expansion, but also for holding management, prestige and piety accumulation, and of course vassal containment, than the Feudal one does.

You are perfectly right though, I'm not disputing that, the earlier you play the more powerful muslims are, it's true, but that's another issue. Maybe I should add to my summerize my point that one of my most enjoying experiences in this game was to start as Zirid in 1066 and recreate Al Andalus. (It's insanely fun to plunder the kafirs' lands, grow rich and fat out of their toil, and invade them.) By then, muslims are not so blobby, like you perfectly stated, but there's a vibe and a rich gameplay to them that Feudals just don't have. Someone said earlier that it just makes them more challenging, and it's true, but I'm sad there is so much less to them.

[Valentine Michael Smith]

feels almost like cheating. Just grab the +piety traits (you get a free one from the pilgrimage) and expand. I don't think the AI can even use that same CB or they never seem to use it on me. Hardest part of it is challenging a Caliph title.

[Zsrai]

Originally posted by Philokèkos:

I think you missed the point, I'm not at all talking about blobbing capabilities (although it's related of course) but about the intrinsic qualities of the Iqta system, which gives much more room, not only for expansion, but also for holding management, prestige and piety accumulation, and of course vassal containment, than the Feudal one does.

Yeah but you also can't marry into titles or claims for the most part, you can't inherit other realms, you are stuck with Open succession (which is pretty good, but still). Don't forget that the higher Piety gain as a Muslim is at least partially offset by the fact that you need to spend in on far, FAR more things than your basic Feudal character does. Iqta does have some downsides, it's just the easiest to blob with (and that's actually just being Muslim).

[Azunai]

playing muslim makes the game simpler overall by removing many of the challenges you deal with as a generic feudal ruler.

can be fun for being fast paced and less focussed on dealing with internal politics and setting up complicated plots to get CBs for land.

but at the same time, those are important aspects of the game and if you take them away, it's little more than a blob simulator. a bit more like EU or stellaris.

nomads are similar, but more extreme. basically nothing but warfare, readily available powerful CBs, very simple realm management.

tribals, too. except for the realm management - they are stuck with the worst succession law which keeps them in check and destroys everything an ambitious ruler built up over their lifetime (unless you get very lucky with your heirs or cheese the system)

[numsei]

but if you look close, muslim was better, so... historical accuracy? from that system, Ottoman empire was born

[Nekololi]

Boy did you ever play nomads

[Nekololi]

Btw try to control curia and you will see how op feudals is

[Cruz / LastSpartan]

Iqta would be fun if it weren't for the requirement to manually straighten up people. It doesn't feel like it belongs to the game to have this "minigame" on top of the already challenging dynasty simulation.

[ancistrus]

It seems pointless to discuss this when the human player in CK2 is already stupidly overpowered simply by the virtue of being human.

[Taiwan Number One]

Yeah. Paradox needs to either buff non-nomadic and non-iqta government types, or nerf nomadic and iqta. The only thing that prevents the two latter groups from world domination is their lackluster AI.

CK2 Government Totem

1. Nomadic.
2. Iqta
3. Replublic
4. Feudal
5. Tribal

[WolfWhiteFire]

You place Iqta over Republic? I get nomadic, that is absolutely OP, but my republic always ends up controlling large portions of Europe, having hundreds of gold per month in income, a better heir selection system than even iqta, as you don't even need to manage how much land they have, you get huge bonuses from your mansion, huge retinues from mansion and trade posts, to the point that I usually eventually end up never using my levy, just my retinues, if you make it a religion that can raid it is even more powerful, especially old germanic, raid + county conquest claims + 3 concubines for tons of heirs to chose from and tons of trade posts= win, and the only real downsdes are needing to either kill old guys or put in a tiny amount of money compared to what you make to win the election, give heir as many honorary titles as possible and you need even less. And that is all within the first century, often within my first ruler's lifetime.