Education (Conclave)

[Havamal]

Feel a little embarassed asking since being a very long time player. Having trouble with me heirs recieving good educations, it all seems pretty random how they end up. I tend to favor martial and stewardship for education of my heirs. Seems like 7 out of 10 times my heir will end up with the weak trait or end up a misguided warrior wirth a base martial stat of 4 after focusing on a martial education (struggle and then martial). Is their any way too have a more direct influence on the education outcome? Are their certain traits too watch for on guardians?

Afaik they way it is is to go for the guardian with the highest base stat for martial and the highest education level. Ive read to avoid those with decietful trait as that is what leads to the weak trait?

[Malvastor]

The guardian's base stat doesn't matter nearly as much (if at all) compared to the profession (i.e. Indulgent Wastrel vs. Midas Touched for Stewardship). Find a guy with the highest possible level of whatever profession you want, get him in your court, and make him your heir's guardian.

[bri]

Originally posted by Malvastor:

The guardian's base stat doesn't matter nearly as much (if at all) compared to the profession (i.e. Indulgent Wastrel vs. Midas Touched for Stewardship). Find a guy with the highest possible level of whatever profession you want, get him in your court, and make him your heir's guardian.

This, although you also want to at least glance at the other traits and choose someone with positive ones rather than negative...

[Havamal]

Originally posted by Malvastor:

The guardian's base stat doesn't matter nearly as much (if at all) compared to the profession (i.e. Indulgent Wastrel vs. Midas Touched for Stewardship). Find a guy with the highest possible level of whatever profession you want, get him in your court, and make him your heir's guardian.

Is there no way to avoid the weak trait from martial education or is it just mostly random?

[Malvastor]

Originally posted by bri:

Originally posted by Malvastor:

The guardian's base stat doesn't matter nearly as much (if at all) compared to the profession (i.e. Indulgent Wastrel vs. Midas Touched for Stewardship). Find a guy with the highest possible level of whatever profession you want, get him in your court, and make him your heir's guardian.

This, although you also want to at least glance at the other traits and choose someone with positive ones rather than negative...

True. I usually circumvent that by raising my heir myself.

Originally posted by Havamal:

Originally posted by Malvastor:

The guardian's base stat doesn't matter nearly as much (if at all) compared to the profession (i.e. Indulgent Wastrel vs. Midas Touched for Stewardship). Find a guy with the highest possible level of whatever profession you want, get him in your court, and make him your heir's guardian.

Is there no way to avoid the weak trait from martial education or is it just mostly random?

I don't think a martial education and the Weak trait are particularly connected, unless you're playing a different version of the game than me. I've never had problems with avoiding Weak.

[Havamal]

Originally posted by Malvastor:

Originally posted by bri:

This, although you also want to at least glance at the other traits and choose someone with positive ones rather than negative...

True. I usually circumvent that by raising my heir myself.

Originally posted by Havamal:

Is there no way to avoid the weak trait from martial education or is it just mostly random?

I don't think a martial education and the Weak trait are particularly connected, unless you're playing a different version of the game than me. I've never had problems with avoiding Weak.

Maybe it wasnt so much the Weak trait but Dull and Slow seem to be pretty prominent with the struggle focus

[Havamal]

So pretty much I want a guardian that is a Brilliant Strategist (with a high base martial stat if possible, but not important?) And with the Brave trait?

[Malvastor]

Originally posted by Havamal:

So pretty much I want a guardian that is a Brilliant Strategist (with a high base martial stat if possible, but not important?) And with the Brave trait?

In general, yeah. Avoid personality traits that you don't want to see in your heir, or that might lead your guardian to abuse your child. High guardian stats are desirable, but not guaranteed.

For more.[ck2.paradoxwikis.com]

[galadon3]

according to the wiki (and I didn't see any proof to the contrary in my games) the professional education depends on the guardian the moment the character turns 16, while he has all the years before to pick up bad traits.

So for important children you can have him educated by a guardian with good traits (and good to ok stats) even if his professional education sucks and then switch him for somebody with a desireable prof-education in the last year or even month (you need to keep an eye on said child ofc).

[Junosbetterhalf]

Originally posted by galadon3:

according to the wiki (and I didn't see any proof to the contrary in my games) the professional education depends on the guardian the moment the character turns 16, while he has all the years before to pick up bad traits.

So for important children you can have him educated by a guardian with good traits (and good to ok stats) even if his professional education sucks and then switch him for somebody with a desireable prof-education in the last year or even month (you need to keep an eye on said child ofc).

He's using Conclave, I don't think this applies. It's a new DLC for me as well though, still trying things out with it.

[bri]

Originally posted by forcefieldkid:

Originally posted by galadon3:

according to the wiki (and I didn't see any proof to the contrary in my games) the professional education depends on the guardian the moment the character turns 16, while he has all the years before to pick up bad traits.

So for important children you can have him educated by a guardian with good traits (and good to ok stats) even if his professional education sucks and then switch him for somebody with a desireable prof-education in the last year or even month (you need to keep an eye on said child ofc).

He's using Conclave, I don't think this applies. It's a new DLC for me as well though, still trying things out with it.

It still applies, it just isn't the only factor like it was before the education system changes.

[kaiyl_kariashi]

The main difference with Conclave is that the stats/education of the educator no longer matter.

It's always the stats of their parent based on which one has the dominant dynasty in the relationship. (this uses base stats, not total stats, so bonuses from traits/education are ignored for rolling if the ward develops a point in that skill each year).

Guardians for the most part just affect which traits they get and save you from having to take the penalties for garunteed traits yourself.

A guardian with low intelligence is more likely to cause the child to develop negative intelligence traits, while a high intelligence guardian is more likely for the child to develop positive intelligence traits.

(this can even downgrade a genius or quick, so you'll want to either educate them yourself or get a quick/genius educator, since they don't pick the option to lower their intelligence. on the other hand, it can also upgrade negative congential intelligence traits. Also if the childs parents or grand parents have quick or genius, it's possible for them to "discover" their hidden talent if they get an intelligence increase event, which gives you another chance to roll quick/genius if the child didn't get it on birth. Otherwise they'll get the non-congential Shrewd which is the same as Quick but not inheirtable).

The guardian is also much more likely to choose event responses that will make the ward more like themselves, so whatever traits you want the child to have, try to get a guardian that also has those traits.

Since you pick the education outright, the only random part is how well the child did in school and what level of education they recieved.

your education level is a roll based on positive vs negative traits as well as the general intelligence of the child.

If he's a genius with 2 positive traits and no negatives for his education type, he's almost garunteed to get level 4 or rarely level 3.

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Non-conclave on the other hand uses the guardian's stats for the child past age 6, and the education is heavily based on level and type of the educator though even a level 4 educator has a small chance of giving the child a completely random education type and level.

But aside for that, they're pretty similar.

The guardian will continue to try and give the child traits that they themselves have.

[Havamal]

Originally posted by kaiyl_kariashi:

[snip].

Thank you for the post and info, this is very helpful and made Conclave education much easier for me to understand.

[Viss Valdyr]

Originally posted by Aaronomus from https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/comprehensive-guide-to-education-in-conclave.906590/:

Spoiler Alert: some of this stuff is pretty fun to experience for the first time in the process of playing naturally. Read on if you're just interested in min-maxing your kids 'cause that's what you find fun.

General Disclaimer: This guide may (and probably does) contain errors. If someone sees something they know or suspect to be wrong, point it out and I'll check it out and edit accordingly.

The first thing to understand is that Conclave has not reduced player-agency in child-rearing. If anything, it has increased it. What has decreased is educator agency, which is to say that the traits of an educator are far less relevant (except in a few key situations, which I will explain). If anything, it is now easier to craft your child into the kind of character you desire, but there is still quite a lot of luck involved. Another thing to keep in mind is that if you are the child, you have even more control over your traits than you would as an educator.

Education events are divided into three files. This is logical, because there are really three phases to a child's education: childhood, adolescence, and conclusion when the child comes of age. I will be explaining each phase fully in order.

Phase One: Childhood
Ages 6-11

You can select your pupil's childhood focus sooner than age 6, but as far as I can tell, it doesn't make any difference.

Over the course of phase one, there will be a biennial pulse that fires one of many different event chains. Each chain is associated with a different childhood-trait. These event chains may result in the child gaining the associated trait. If the child is AI, the chance is 75%; if the child is player-controlled, it depends on choices made during the event chain. I haven't carefully poured over every single event chain, but it seems like you can nearly always guarantee you pick up the childhood trait if you want it.

The childhood focuses are:

Pride: favors Haughty and Brooding
Humility: favors Affectionate and Timid
Struggle: favors Rowdy and Willful
Etiquette: favors Indolent and Playful
Duty: favors Conscientious
Thrift: favors Fussy and Curious
Faith: favors Idolizer
Heritage: favors none, but increases the chance of flipping the child's culture/religion to that of the educator.

All events are equally probable except that the two traits that are favored by the child's focus are five times more probable than the others. Also, Timid and Rowdy are mutually exclusive; once the child has either trait, the event chain to gain the other cannot be selected.

These traits are very important. Phase one is best understood as the child's formative years, so choose the child's focus carefully.

Finally, if the child is imprisoned (but not under house arrest, in which case the child's education proceeds normally with the captor as the educator), a different set of event chains take place. These can grant the traits Indolent, Affectionate, Brooding, or Timid (in addition to a host of nasty health-traits).


Phase Two: Adolescence
Ages 12-15

During phase two, there is a different biennial pulse which will take one of the child's childhood traits, selected at random, and turn it into an ordinary trait. Each childhood trait can morph into any of three ordinary traits, with a caveat: each childhood trait also has a fourth option, which can only occur if the child's educator has that trait. The child's education focus has no effect on these events; it only comes into play in phase three, the moment the child turns 16. After the childhood traits are replaced, the game remembers which traits the child used to have, which comes into play in phase 3 when the child turns 16 and earns his/her education trait.

For example, Haughty can become either Proud, Arbitrary, or Cruel. After this decision is made (completely randomly), then if the child's educator is ambitious, he/she can choose to try to make the child ambitious instead of whichever trait was selected. The child can then choose to accept the new trait in place of the old.

The possible adult traits in full:

Haughty
Proud, Arbitrary, Cruel.
Educator overwrite: Ambitious

Affectionate
Kind, Content, Trusting
Educator overwrite: Charitable

Timid
Humble, Shy, Craven
Educator overwrite: Content

Rowdy
Strong, Honest, Dumber*
Educator overwrite: Brave

Willful
Ambitious, Brave, Stubborn
Educator overwrite: Proud

Brooding
Just, Wroth, Envious
Educator overwrite: Temperate

Indolent
Charitable, Slothful, Gluttonous.
Educator overwrite: Gregarious

Playful
Gregarious, Deceitful, Lunatic**
Educator overwrite: Cruel

Conscientious***
Diligent or Temperate
Educator overwrite: Just

Fussy
Patient, Greedy, Paranoid
Educator overwrite: Diligent

Curious
Cynical, Religion-Sympathy****, Smarter*
Education overwrite: Patient

Idolizer
Zealous, Erudite, Weak
Education overwrite: Kind

* Smarter increases the child's intelligence by one level, on the scale of Imbecile -> Slow -> Normal -> Quick -> Genius. Dumber has the opposite effect.
** Lunatic is 1/10 as likely as the alternatives.
*** Conscientious has a chance to give the Stressed trait in addition to one of the other two.
**** If the child's educator/location/friend/sibling belongs to a different religion group, then the child becomes sympathetic to that religion. If there is more than one applicable religion, the child chooses one.

Also note that if the child already has a trait that is mutually exclusive to one of the three options, then that trait will not be chosen and therefore cannot overwrite the trait that the child already has. However, the educator's overwrite can overwrite an opposite trait. For example, the child is Affectionate, Ambitious, and Greedy. The educator is Charitable. Content cannot be one of the three traits selected randomly, but if the educator and child both choose to overwrite Kind or Trusting with Charitable, the child will also lose the Greedy trait.


Phase Three: Coming of Age
The moment the child turns 16

When the child turns 16, his education trait is selected. As you probably already know, there are four levels for each attribute. The child will always receive an education trait for the attribute selected in the adolescent's focus. Which level is selected is randomized, with heavy weights thrown in depending on which traits the child has/had. "Good" traits increase the likelihood of getting a better level. "Bad" traits increase the likelihood of a lower level.

@Allastair has created a very helpful spreadsheet to determine the precise likelihood of each education tier, given your child's traits. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1q2aEWH1AT_IhTJYMKS7d07M8pk7-7ex9qKJ-YIE7GG4/edit#gid=0

For all attributes:
Good traits: Genius, Quick, Diligent
Bad traits: Incapable, Imbecile, Inbred, Slothful

The game remembers which childhood traits the child possessed when entering adolescence, and applies them now to further determine the likelihood of better/worse education levels:

Diplomacy
Good Traits: Affectionate, Curious
Bad Traits: Willful, Fussy

Martial
Good Traits: Rowdy, Willful
Bad Traits: Timid, Idolizer

Stewardship
Good Traits: Brooding, Conscientious
Bad Traits: Indolent, Haughty

Intrigue
Good Traits: Playful, Fussy
Bad Traits: Rowdy, Affectionate

Learning
Good Traits: Idolizer, Timid
Bad Traits: Brooding, Playful

Summary of Agency

Here's a quick and dirty list of those aspects of education that are under the player's control, depending on the player's role. I'm only about 80% sure that this is all correct, so this either needs to be tested further, or someone who knows Clausewitz better than me needs to check the game files.

Child's Liege (if courtier) or the Child him/herself (if landed)
Focuses, in both phase one and two. Note that since a focus cannot be changed, it's safe to land your child after choosing his education focus once he's twelve years old.

Child's educator
Whether or not to intervene during adolescence with an alternative trait, after seeing what the initially selected trait is going to be.

The Child
In phase one, whether or not to pick up each semi-randomly selected childhood trait as it presents itself via events.
In phase two, whether or not to accept an alternative trait offered by your educator.


For now, I'm going to let strategy remain beyond the scope of this guide. I'm just here to tell you how the system functions, not to suggest how to use it. But since I'm usually such an opinionated blowhard, I'll probably change my mind later, and list all the proper ways to raise your kids, and tell everyone who does it differently that they're bad and they should feel bad.