How to expand outside your kingdom without fabricating claims?

[mjbn77]

Hi,

I just started playing CK2 a few weeks ago and love the game. Very upset about myself not having picked that one up already many years ago. Anyway, I spent quite some time on the CK wiki and watch youtube tutorials. So far I only played in Ireland with the 1066 start date. I was able to become King of Ireland and unite the kingdom several times. This usually takes about 20 years and I do it with the first or second generation. Depending how things go (especially succession) I end up with many vassals or almost none (after big revolts after succession). Anyway, that is were my problems and many failed attempts of trying to expand beyond Ireland (Wales or Scotland) start. So I have a few clarifying questions in regards to expansion.

1. Using courtiers with claims to a county in either Wales or Scotland: I invited people with de jure claims to a specific county. I can then declare war in their name to win the county for them. I also understand that they will only be my vassals if I first land them in my realm, otherwise they will be independent after I win the war for them. So far so good. I landed a bunch of Welsh and Scottish courtiers with claims. But then I get a bunch of inheritance warnings that I might loose those counties. I don't know how to react to that. First, is this approach good? Second, how to deal with the succession warnings?

2. Marrying off dynasty members counts (or rulers in general) in regions where I want to expand to. And then, getting rid of all heirs in front of them until they are the last one in line. That only works with the child of my married off daughter, right? What would happen if my daughters husband is heir and he has a tragic accident, would she become my vassal? What if I marry away male members of my dynasty? how does it work in that case? Also, when we speak of dynasty, we only talk about direct bloodline, son/daughters and grandchildren, correct? Or does it also involve nephews and cousins?

Thanks for your help. I feel like I missing the full grasp on this aspect of the game.

[SkiRich]

Some things I found out recently ...
The above two items are good and obvious.
Here is what I found out ...

1. If you are following the pope (Catholic) Start a holy war for the territory if the territory is controlled by a non-believer. You get a free pass to do it.
2. Border dispute - It costs you some piety (or was it prestige) and the popes opinion changes but thats it. Another almost free pass.
3. Force vassalation - This one costs you opinion off all the people involved on the other side, and some piety.

[Malus]

Also converting to a religion that gives cbs might be an option, like germanic and their county conquest, or anything that allows for holy wars.

[mjbn77]

Originally posted by SkiRich:

Some things I found out recently ...
The above two items are good and obvious.
Here is what I found out ...

1. If you are following the pope (Catholic) Start a holy war for the territory if the territory is controlled by a non-believer. You get a free pass to do it.
2. Border dispute - It costs you some piety (or was it prestige) and the popes opinion changes but thats it. Another almost free pass.
3. Force vassalation - This one costs you opinion off all the people involved on the other side, and some piety.

The above two have questions I need answered for clarification. Your number one doesn't work for my region. all Catholics there. Number two is a rule for Jade dragon DLC, which I don't play with.

[mjbn77]

Originally posted by Christmas Potajto:

Also converting to a religion that gives cbs might be an option, like germanic and their county conquest, or anything that allows for holy wars.

I don't want to convert religion. I try to fully understand the two options I explained above and try to get answers to the specific questions. Thanks, anyway.

[Peda]

Border Dispute that costs Piety and money is a good option, but you need Jade Dragon DLC, I believe.
Also Holy Wars against heretics if they pop up near you or marrying other realms to get claims down the line are your best options.

[Malus]

If youre playing a Christian, you can try asking your religious head to give you claims on counties and duchies held by someone also under that religious head, they can also allow you to invade the enemy primary kingdom/empire and usurp the title, along with its dejure titles and vassals, along with any sieged Counties.

[Wokelander]

Originally posted by Christmas Potajto:

If youre playing a Christian, you can try asking your religious head to give you claims on counties and duchies held by someone also under that religious head, they can also allow you to invade the enemy primary kingdom/empire and usurp the title, along with its dejure titles and vassals, along with any sieged Counties.

Yeah, be a good Christian and suck up to the Pope and he's liable to grant you a fair amount of claims*

*May require DLC, I have all DLC for so long I don't know what's what any more :)

[SkiRich]

Originally posted by mjbn77:

Originally posted by SkiRich:

Some things I found out recently ...
The above two items are good and obvious.
Here is what I found out ...

1. If you are following the pope (Catholic) Start a holy war for the territory if the territory is controlled by a non-believer. You get a free pass to do it.
2. Border dispute - It costs you some piety (or was it prestige) and the popes opinion changes but thats it. Another almost free pass.
3. Force vassalation - This one costs you opinion off all the people involved on the other side, and some piety.

The above two have questions I need answered for clarification. Your number one doesn't work for my region. all Catholics there. Number two is a rule for Jade dragon DLC, which I don't play with.

Get on good terms with the pope.
Or get one or more of your vassals into the cardinal college.Then ask for excommunication of liege you want the territory from.
It would help to send a spy over there and start rumors.
Once ex-com, then you have another free pass to invade.

[JD]

1. Approve the High Crown Authority Law to disallow external inheritance (or Regulated Inheritance if you have Conclave). Whoever inherit a land they will stay in your realm.
2. This is a really long way. I barely use it. *JD loses the Patient trait. JD gains the Wroth trait* :D
3. Everything like you said plus what been said about the claims from the Pope, besides that I'd really recommend you the Jade Dragon DLC, it adds more CBs, like De Jure claim on Duchy and Force Vassalization. The Border Dispute CB makes your life a little bit easy if you start as a Count, if you're a Duke or above it's almost useless for you, but the AI (your vassals) abuses it way too hard (I've disabled it in the game rules).

[Chill°bucket]

get someone with a strong claim; make war for the claim while you build a castle; if you win the war give him the castle/barony then end the war and he is your vasall with that claim; if you have the right DLC or good connections to the pope try to get rid of him, get his lieges and seek the next victim ....

[SkiRich]

+1 for the Jade Dragon DLC
Makes you expansion life much better.

[Varainger]

Originally posted by mjbn77:

I landed a bunch of Welsh and Scottish courtiers with claims. But then I get a bunch of inheritance warnings that I might loose those counties. I don't know how to react to that. First, is this approach good? Second, how to deal with the succession warnings?

Yes, good.
Depends.
Are they childless and have landed relatives outside your realm ?
Well then hope they don't die childless and rather inheirt their relatives land instead the other way around. Are they heir to higher titles ? Than then wil leave your realm on inheritance.

You might also get the warning having gavelkind, as the vassals might get to the other heir..
So the warnings are always relative at the time. It's just potentials.

You can mostly ignore the ones, where the heir is in a different de jure area. Sometimes they are somehow in line for several titles and maybe even one outside your realm, but rarely. Late game or late medieval start date more likely.

Info: You dont have to land claimants if you already own a higher de jure title of the target
or if they are of your dynasty.

2. Marrying off dynasty members counts (or rulers in general) in regions where I want to expand to. And then, getting rid of all heirs in front of them until they are the last one in line. That only works with the child of my married off daughter, right? .....What if I marry away male members of my dynasty? how does it work in that case? Also, when we speak of dynasty, we only talk about direct bloodline, son/daughters and grandchildren, correct? Or does it also involve nephews and cousins?

To make it short and simplistic.
It depends on the succession law and the dynastic line (see also type of marriages).

..What would happen if my daughters husband is heir and he has a tragic accident, would she become my vassal?..

??
Why should she get the title of her husband and become your vassal in turn?
That's not how it works.

What you try to achive with that murder-expansion is to either inherit the title yourself
or get your a dynastic relative into power who could be your heir.
I don't use it anymore.

The other one is to marry your daughters matrilinearly or simply women with claims to your sons whose dynastic children could in turn inherit these claims and which you could press.
Takes ages though unless you murder the claim source when they got their first child.

Too much murder for my taste.


https://ck2.paradoxwikis.com/Expanding_your_realm
Whci you hopefully read before...

Another variant is to get your dynasty in place of a title and in case of still close dynastic ties they'll be elligable to be candidate under feudal elective, despite being outside your realm. So you can unite two realms that way on succession.

[VipreRX]

Originally posted by SkiRich:

+1 for the Jade Dragon DLC

You might just be the only person to have ever written that.

[Segovax]

Originally posted by VipreRX:

Originally posted by SkiRich:

+1 for the Jade Dragon DLC

You might just be the only person to have ever written that.

I dunno, I would definitely pay money for that before Sunset Invasion or Horse Lords.

[VipreRX]

The CB's and Rally Points are nice but unless you play primarily in the East it's hardly a noticeable addition.