Why is "Greek" culture even a thing, eh?

[Goose]

The "Greeks" didn't even refer to themselves as Greek until they began to rebel against the Ottoman Empire... in the 1800s...

They referred to themselves as the Romans during the time of the Byzantine Empire. It is the catholic popes who referred to them as Greeks, because the catholic church wanted to be seen as the true descendants of the Roman Empire (which they were not)

Saying that the Romans were Greek is like saying the Anglo-Saxons were English... it just don't make no sense!

[VipreRX]

I would think the Greeks from Greece would be Greek whether they called themselves Greek or not.

That aside, reforming the Hellenistic religion is possible in the game so that may be why the Greek culture is a thing.

[Malus]

I agree

One reason i can come up with that modern greeks like to see "greek" culture in the game and makes their role play more enjoyable. You know... Nationalism and stuff... Kinda similar to why the Roman Empire is refered as byzantine after a certain date, due to some biases of modern people.

Another reason i came up with is that this gane is supposed to be told from a "western bias" or something like that, feudalism and tribalism is somewhat modeled on how it looked like in 1 period in France and other mechanics look more like how it worked in the west rather than lets say Roman empire, there is not even an true imperial government either for China like Empires or Rome.

[JC]

but early greeks were not romans their culture goes back long before rome was formed. They did eventually become part of the eastern roman empire later though,. But they were fairly different, even around the BC/AD swap and later. It wasn't till much later that romans adopted Christianity did they really start to loose their original identity as a unique place, but even then many still looked at themselves as different despite what the roman rulers would say.

Kinda like how egypt and the west bank, aka the land of the jews were part of rome, but never thought of as actually roman to the peoples that lived there, only their overlords.


that said i know people that are "greek" that would never say they were descendants of Romans, you might as well be talking Blastphemy!

[SkiRich]

Greeks where never romans.
Actually Rome in its infancy was a protectorate of a Grecian city state called Hellena. So were much of the other city states of early Greece.
By the time Rome was a power the Greek city states were in decline.
The area was know as Hellenistic.

[Chikuwu]

Originally posted by Christmas Potajto:

I agree

One reason i can come up with that modern greeks like to see "greek" culture in the game and makes their role play more enjoyable. You know... Nationalism and stuff... Kinda similar to why the Roman Empire is refered as byzantine after a certain date, due to some biases of modern people.

Another reason i came up with is that this gane is supposed to be told from a "western bias" or something like that, feudalism and tribalism is somewhat modeled on how it looked like in 1 period in France and other mechanics look more like how it worked in the west rather than lets say Roman empire, there is not even an true imperial government either for China like Empires or Rome.

one correction.

It was NOT called the "ROMAN EMPIRE" at that point in time. It was Byzantine Empire, also referred to as the Eastern Roman Empire, or Byzantium by locals.

It was not the real Roman Empire at that point of time and date, and many didnt recognize it as the same as it once was, the real Roman Empire. Hence during that time period it was called the Byzantium and its citizens referred to as Byzantines.

Even the Holy Roman Empire, the HRE, wasnt recognized as the REAL Roman Empire. At the time when it was flagged as HRE and the first Holy Roman Emperor was declared by the Pope, half of the Roman Empire was still in the middle of Individual and Independence wars, and the Holy Roman Emperor never had true lead over the Italian Regions and many other independent states, even though he claimed to have rule over them. the title Holy Roman Emperor was more like a paid Title which the first HRE got due to the Pope wanting to consort his own power over the broken realms by getting money from the King who wanted to be crowned emperor, and that way, the pope got power trough a puppet emperor.

[Majestic Person]

Can we stop and say this is ck2 what about glitterhoof what about immortality? what about the necromonicon? what about being a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ werewolf? Its supernatural and cannot really be explained logically. Has there been an empire of scandinavia? no. Some De-jures dont match up, some cultures dont really match up. But what are they? Close enough or not close at all and is used for balencing purposes or because its easier for the common man to understand. Byzantines? Greek. Easier that way. Simplier

[SKull]

Yes, because obviously antiquity never happened.

[Swagmaster Love 🇪🇺]

Because that stuff is based on modern day knowledge and not on 0bc history classes.

[galadon3]

Originally posted by Chiku:

one correction.

It was NOT called the "ROMAN EMPIRE" at that point in time. It was Byzantine Empire, also referred to as the Eastern Roman Empire, or Byzantium by locals.

It was not the real Roman Empire at that point of time and date, and many didnt recognize it as the same as it once was, the real Roman Empire. Hence during that time period it was called the Byzantium and its citizens referred to as Byzantines.

Sorry, but no, the name Byzantine Empire is a later invention (after the fall of Constantinople to the Ottomans), the contemporary citizens of the empire still thought of themselves as romans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire#Nomenclature

[Azoniar]

Originally posted by galadon3:

Originally posted by Chiku:

one correction.

It was NOT called the "ROMAN EMPIRE" at that point in time. It was Byzantine Empire, also referred to as the Eastern Roman Empire, or Byzantium by locals.

It was not the real Roman Empire at that point of time and date, and many didnt recognize it as the same as it once was, the real Roman Empire. Hence during that time period it was called the Byzantium and its citizens referred to as Byzantines.

Sorry, but no, the name Byzantine Empire is a later invention (after the fall of Constantinople to the Ottomans), the contemporary citizens of the empire still thought of themselves as romans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire#Nomenclature

Yep the Byzantine Empire was the true Roman Empire, it never ceased to exist up until 1453. And they did refer to themselves as Roman and some still do to this day(rominoi).

[Karlington]

Originally posted by Guardsman Beep:

The "Greeks" didn't even refer to themselves as Greek until they began to rebel against the Ottoman Empire... in the 1800s...

They referred to themselves as the Romans during the time of the Byzantine Empire. It is the catholic popes who referred to them as Greeks, because the catholic church wanted to be seen as the true descendants of the Roman Empire (which they were not)

Saying that the Romans were Greek is like saying the Anglo-Saxons were English... it just don't make no sense!

Because regardless of what they called themselves, their culture was quite distinct from that of the old Roman Republic and Roman Empire. One major example is the use of Greek rather than Latin, both for everyday purposes as the liturgical language of the church. Language is a huge part of culture.

You'll also note that Italy does not have Roman culture either, so it's not like Paradox is taking sides in some sort of "cultural Great Schism" here.

Roman culture in the game reflects the culture of ancient Rome before the east-west split, and IIRC it is only available once character who restores the Roman Empire (there may be exceptions, but this is the main avenue to restore Roman culture to the game).

This can only be done by the holder of the Byzantine Empire (the Holy Roman Empire cannot do it), by the way, so here Paradox is actually taking a stance in favor of the eastern claim to Roman continuity. :)

[Malus]

Originally posted by Chiku:

Originally posted by Christmas Potajto:

I agree

One reason i can come up with that modern greeks like to see "greek" culture in the game and makes their role play more enjoyable. You know... Nationalism and stuff... Kinda similar to why the Roman Empire is refered as byzantine after a certain date, due to some biases of modern people.

Another reason i came up with is that this gane is supposed to be told from a "western bias" or something like that, feudalism and tribalism is somewhat modeled on how it looked like in 1 period in France and other mechanics look more like how it worked in the west rather than lets say Roman empire, there is not even an true imperial government either for China like Empires or Rome.

one correction.

It was NOT called the "ROMAN EMPIRE" at that point in time. It was Byzantine Empire, also referred to as the Eastern Roman Empire, or Byzantium by locals.

It was not the real Roman Empire at that point of time and date, and many didnt recognize it as the same as it once was, the real Roman Empire. Hence during that time period it was called the Byzantium and its citizens referred to as Byzantines.

Even the Holy Roman Empire, the HRE, wasnt recognized as the REAL Roman Empire. At the time when it was flagged as HRE and the first Holy Roman Emperor was declared by the Pope, half of the Roman Empire was still in the middle of Individual and Independence wars, and the Holy Roman Emperor never had true lead over the Italian Regions and many other independent states, even though he claimed to have rule over them. the title Holy Roman Emperor was more like a paid Title which the first HRE got due to the Pope wanting to consort his own power over the broken realms by getting money from the King who wanted to be crowned emperor, and that way, the pope got power trough a puppet emperor.

I do not have enghout Knowlage on this topic, so i can't really argue

[Chikuwu]

Originally posted by galadon3:

Originally posted by Chiku:

one correction.

It was NOT called the "ROMAN EMPIRE" at that point in time. It was Byzantine Empire, also referred to as the Eastern Roman Empire, or Byzantium by locals.

It was not the real Roman Empire at that point of time and date, and many didnt recognize it as the same as it once was, the real Roman Empire. Hence during that time period it was called the Byzantium and its citizens referred to as Byzantines.

Sorry, but no, the name Byzantine Empire is a later invention (after the fall of Constantinople to the Ottomans), the contemporary citizens of the empire still thought of themselves as romans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire#Nomenclature

What was left of the Roman Empire at 700s was not Roman Empire at all, even though they claimed it, Byzantine just means Eastern Roman Empire by default. It was NOT the actual Roman Empire at that point due to all the division of power and major cultural changes that made the older REAL Roman Empire obsolete.

They may have called themselves Roman Empire, but nobody else back then did. Their claim to the old Roman Empire was minimal.

Its like in modern times Russia is still claiming to be Democratic country, when in reality everyone around them knows its not.

[Goose]

Breaking news: Catholics who are all puppets of the Roman Pope all claim that the Roman Empire is not the Roman Empire

LMAO

You might as well say that the Roman Empire was not really Roman because they got rid of their Republic system.

[Dizzydeath1337]

Originally posted by Guardsman Beep:

Breaking news: Catholics who are all puppets of the Roman Pope all claim that the Roman Empire is not the Roman Empire

LMAO

You might as well say that the Roman Empire was not really Roman because they got rid of their Republic system.

Protestant here, Greece is distinctly different from Rome.