HRE as Karl of West Francia...did I break it?

[gastfyr]

So I've been playing my first Iron Man run, picked King Karl, and been playing as him for about 9 in game years now. Since I haven't seen what looked like a story event for quite some time, I finally Googled how to form the HRE and I'm just confused. Is it really so easy to derail the entire event chain to the point where forming the HRE is no longer possible?

Since I went ahead and made Pepin legitimate and then had a second son with my Kazar wife (she announced the pregnancy literally just days after I took a vow of celibacy), my realm is going to split when I die, and I was thinking I could prevent that if I could make the HRE...which I was supposed to be able to do, but no events related to that in any way have popped up for years.

I've currently got Smallpox and my mother who is also by far the most qualified Spymaster has Great Pox (and somehow managed to make my Court Physician her Rival) and I'm fighting a Holy War against some Excommunicated guy in Spain while some guy in Lombardy leads a rebellion in my name because apparently he thinks my claim is more legit than that of the old recently dead king's 17 year old son. Neither war seems to be going overly well, though I haven't touched or even really looked at the Lombardy one as I never asked that guy to lead a rebellion and I was already at war when it popped up.

I would just like to be able to keep my big realm rather than having it splinter on my (possibly quite imminent) death. Is there any way at this point to still form the HRE? The decision in the Intrigue menu says I need to either be Emperor of Francia (which would require far more Piety than I'm likely ever to amass but also make the HRE entirely a moot point because I'd already have an empire) or control Rome (which I guess is what I was supposed to do but have no idea how to do).

[MO-BRO]

"which im supposed to be able to do" uhhhhhhh...not if you dont conquer the necessary land to for the empire. Your Karl sounds like an absolute cuck, btw

[Langkard]

You need Lombardy (Italy) to form the HRE. You should offer to join that rebellion there.

[Poliut]

It also doesn't have to be Karl or Karloman who does it. Just be sure to check periodically for claimants you can invite (force with a favor) to your court if you want to go the Kingdom of Sicily+Empire of Italia route.

[🔺🔶TheChaosWithin🔶🔺]

As above says, i formed it from the Kingdom of Wessex as nobody else had bothered in 950AD from an early start game, taking Italy was easier than taking Pictland at the time as France had nicely laid out the groundwork over the previous 150years, shortly got the Alexander the Great bloodline shortly after then invaded France taking most of real Italy in the process. Happy Days.

[Iskander]

You can easily mess up the events, because the first thing most people do before unpausing the game, is sending out a marriage proposal for their unmarried King.

With the Charlemagne start, playing as Karl: don't marry anyone. You will get an event to marry the Lombard Princess. Accept it. And after a while: agree to divorce her. You will get a few free claims. Also allow your mother to try and "fix" your rivalry with your brother. As far as I know, legitimizing Pepin or not has no effect.

[gastfyr]

Originally posted by Iskander:

You can easily mess up the events, because the first thing most people do before unpausing the game, is sending out a marriage proposal for their unmarried King.

Well, yes. Why would I want to play any length of time with the spouse stats just missing? Tbh marrying someone just to divorce her later seems pointless and counter intuitive.
Legitimizing Pepin has the effect of making any current wife furious for decades and will also lead to a realm split if you manage to have another son. I realised quite early on that I should have ligitimized Pepin and then got married, but again, why would I want to play any length of time without spouse stats?

[Varainger]

Originally posted by gastfyr:

....Why would I want to play any length of time with the spouse stats just missing? Tbh marrying someone just to divorce her later seems pointless and counter intuitive...

- Ignore this post if your above post was a rhetorical resonse.
I don't think Iskander meant to say that in a condescending way, if that was your interpretation, rather that it can easily happen to anyone who doesn't know of the event chain. Happens. -

Has been more or less said before :

It's the event story (it's historical, you get a claim on Lombardy on divorce*, as far as i recall), that's why and to not break the event chain.

To give you an idea of events
https://ck2.paradoxwikis.com/CM_Story_Events

* i might have confused that with the claim you get of the court the wife of Karlman flees to, but not sure if both exist or not.

[gastfyr]

Originally posted by Varainger:

I don't think Iskander meant to say that in a condescending way, if that was your interpretation, rather that it can easily happen to anyone who doesn't know of the event chain.

That's how I took the post, that it can easily happen and it's understandable. I didn't mean my response to come across as if I was offended by the post. I'm just more befuddled by an event chain that would apparently require such counter intuitive behaviour from the player.

Originally posted by Varainger:

* i might have confused that with the claim you get of the court the wife of Karlman flees to, but not sure if both exist or not.

I have a claim on Lombardy, which I got when Karloman's wife fled and dumped her kids off there. If that's all I need, then I guess the whole marriage/divorce thing really is pointless. /shrug

[Iskander]

Originally posted by gastfyr:

I have a claim on Lombardy, which I got when Karloman's wife fled and dumped her kids off there. If that's all I need, then I guess the whole marriage/divorce thing really is pointless. /shrug

Yeah, the marriage/divorce thing gives you a claim on either Asturias/Italy/Bavaria, depending on where your wife flees to after the divorce. She can flee to Italy, which is a waste, as you already get a claim there. She can flee to Bavaria, but you can press a claim of some other Karling who starts with a claim on Bavaria. If you do that after you get an Imperial title, you can add them to your realm. The only "useful" outcome is if she flees to Asturias... So you indeed didn't miss much.

[Varainger]

Originally posted by gastfyr:

If that's all I need, then I guess the whole marriage/divorce thing really is pointless. /shrug

It's historical, thus part of the event chain.
Yes, in a way pointless gameplaywise, but not storywise.
I had a look at the event file, the claim indeed only comes from the fleeing wife of Karloman.
No claim from the divorced lombard wife

[gastfyr]

Originally posted by Iskander:

She can flee to Italy, which is a waste, as you already get a claim there.

Where am I meant to get the claim on Italy?

[Iskander]

Originally posted by gastfyr:

Originally posted by Iskander:

She can flee to Italy, which is a waste, as you already get a claim there.

Where am I meant to get the claim on Italy?

Oops, I confused the Lombard princess (your historic wife) with Karloman's widow!
The Lombard princess goes back to Lombardy, giving you a claim there.
Karloman's widow is the one who can flee to either Asturias, Lombardy or Bavaria.

So in your case, Karloman's widow fled to Lombardy. If you waited to get yourself a wife through the Charlemagne story events, you'd have gotten a claim on Lombardy, which you also got through Karloman's widow, so you didn't lose anything.

EDIT: Also, when I wrote "Italy", I meant to write "Lombardy"

[Poliut]

Originally posted by Iskander:

You can easily mess up the events, because the first thing most people do before unpausing the game, is sending out a marriage proposal for their unmarried King.

With the Charlemagne start, playing as Karl: don't marry anyone. You will get an event to marry the Lombard Princess. Accept it. And after a while: agree to divorce her. You will get a few free claims. Also allow your mother to try and "fix" your rivalry with your brother. As far as I know, legitimizing Pepin or not has no effect.

I think it still happens even if you as Karl manually arrange a marriage for one of Desiderius's unmarried daughters.