Isn't pagan religion too op?

[Majestic Person]

Can't speak for most but I played as lithuania 1066 as Romuva religion which has crazy buffs. Idk whether I was really lucky or not but I became from a duke to a king in just my first character. Im currently on my second character and i expanded beyond the de jure of my kingdom with 3 of my holy sites secure so I all have to do is conquest and wait and reform my religion. Wait a minute.... does the reformed religion still have the same buffs? I don't have holy dlc.

[Count Von Count]

You are stuck with ♥♥♥♥ succession types, and being tribal will end up being a bad thing if you stick with it too long.

But pagans are meant to be OP in the right time, yes

[Kernest]

I'm fairly certain you keep at least the most important buff even if you reform, by which I mean the Defensive or Offensive religion bonus, depending on the religion.

The biggest issue early on is the succession laws, as was pointed out.

Later on, unless the various pagans have managed to make Christianity inconsequential, the crusades will wipe you out if you're not reformed.

You'll need heavy infantry and cavalry from your demesne as well as as many levies from your vassals as possible.

[76109108007942031]

If I remember correctly, reformed religions lose the majority of their buffs, so there is that.

But the main issue with pagans is the restrictions in place while they are unreformed (in other words, gavelkind), slow technology growth which means your soldiers bend over like wet paper to the Christians and Muslims in the later stages of the game, and the awkward period of time where you just switched to feudalism, and you need to defend your realm on your own against your religious neighbours (who surely hate you) without the aid of your supply bonus while your vassals switch to feudalism.

Once you're properly transitioned to feudalism though, a pagan can be pretty overpowered with certain reformation choices.

[Karlington]

Originally posted by Sir Illic:

If I remember correctly, reformed religions lose the majority of their buffs, so there is that.

There's a list on the Wiki[ck2.paradoxwikis.com] of which unreformed buffs carry over through the reformation (regardless of doctrines). Tengri have the best combat bonuses, followed by Germanic and Aztec.

What is not clear from the Wiki is whether the +80% defense bonus in provinces of their own religion for defensive pagans (like the Romuva) carries over through reformation or not. Does anyone know?

(Not to be confused with defensive attrition, which I know does not carry over through reformation.)

[Malus]

No, pagans are op in most cases.
But depending on the artifacts available you might want to convert to a religion to be able to use them. Also sunni is the best peace time religion for the top ruler and holders of castles, temples and tribes, as it increases income heavily. Reformed African or zun are best for city holder vassals

Reformes religions have different buffs / debuffa compared to their unreformed counterparts. That holds true even with, even without the dlc holly furry. The difference in buffs can be seen here

https://ck2.paradoxwikis.com/Religion

Without holy furry the 80% defense bonus carries over for all religions that had it before reformation

Originally posted by Lt Veers:

You are stuck with ♥♥♥♥ succession types, and being tribal will end up being a bad thing if you stick with it too long.

But pagans are meant to be OP in the right time, yes

Reformed pagams seem to have acceas to more succesion laws then other religious groups so that argument doesnt stand. Also the topic seem to be only about religion and not government. But depending on the dlcs active, tribal can be the best government form if you do not have respublica dlc

[Rodi]

you don't get access to monastic societies.

playing a norse Catholic from 769/800 is probably strongest start ingame. always being a benidicktine or Dominican ensures lots of virtues and very good heirs.
you can also convert wealth into Christian artifacts to get opinion and start buffs.

Hell you can even raid the pope for level 5 artifact (bones of Saint Peter) and get +10opinion with every Catholic for the rest of the game.

It's a lot of passive and static Boni, but still worth tbqh.

and of course crusades exist too.
free 6k gold and incredible trait if you do some fighting down there(and potentially a free kingdom)

[Segovax]

Originally posted by 187:

you don't get access to monastic societies.

playing a norse Catholic from 769/800 is probably strongest start ingame. always being a benidicktine or Dominican ensures lots of virtues and very good heirs.
you can also convert wealth into Christian artifacts to get opinion and start buffs.

Hell you can even raid the pope for level 5 artifact (bones of Saint Peter) and get +10opinion with every Catholic for the rest of the game.

It's a lot of passive and static Boni, but still worth tbqh.

and of course crusades exist too.
free 6k gold and incredible trait if you do some fighting down there(and potentially a free kingdom)

You get Wolf Warriors if you have Holy Fury as a Norse Germanic. They are, frankly, an order of magnitude better than the Christian orders. As a Hero of the warrior lodge you are no longer subject to negative battle events, which is in itself an OP trait.

If you don't have HF you can still join the Hel folks, which is basically just a reskinned Satanist cult.

[Kernest]

Originally posted by Christmas Potajto:

Originally posted by Lt Veers:

You are stuck with ♥♥♥♥ succession types, and being tribal will end up being a bad thing if you stick with it too long.

But pagans are meant to be OP in the right time, yes

Reformed pagams seem to have acceas to more succesion laws then other religious groups so that argument doesnt stand. Also the topic seem to be only about religion and not government. But depending on the dlcs active, tribal can be the best government form if you do not have respublica dlc

He was clearly referencing remaining unreformed pagan with the succession types.

And no, Tribal is not the best form of government. It is for at the very least the first 100 years after the Viking Era start date, but Feudal government, particularly in player control is much stronger economically and militarily.

[Rodi]

Originally posted by Segovax:

Originally posted by 187:

you don't get access to monastic societies.

playing a norse Catholic from 769/800 is probably strongest start ingame. always being a benidicktine or Dominican ensures lots of virtues and very good heirs.
you can also convert wealth into Christian artifacts to get opinion and start buffs.

Hell you can even raid the pope for level 5 artifact (bones of Saint Peter) and get +10opinion with every Catholic for the rest of the game.

It's a lot of passive and static Boni, but still worth tbqh.

and of course crusades exist too.
free 6k gold and incredible trait if you do some fighting down there(and potentially a free kingdom)

You get Wolf Warriors if you have Holy Fury as a Norse Germanic. They are, frankly, an order of magnitude better than the Christian orders. As a Hero of the warrior lodge you are no longer subject to negative battle events, which is in itself an OP trait.

If you don't have HF you can still join the Hel folks, which is basically just a reskinned Satanist cult.

warrior societies don't have jack on monastic societies dude.
they don't grant you any of the virtues (rather vices like wroth).
the only great traits you can get are ambitious and brave, while monastic give you all virtues pretty quickly and allow your char to give your children virtues aswell, making them better heirs in future.

I also forgot pilgrimages for Christians. you get +5 opinion and a good chance to gain zealous, aswell as events giving you kind, brave, patient(?), aswell as techpoints or cynical(not too great tbf.)

Being part of an order for most of your life, running theology focus and getting good relations and piety with the pope makes sainthood rather likely too.

[Segovax]

Originally posted by 187:

Originally posted by Segovax:

You get Wolf Warriors if you have Holy Fury as a Norse Germanic. They are, frankly, an order of magnitude better than the Christian orders. As a Hero of the warrior lodge you are no longer subject to negative battle events, which is in itself an OP trait.

If you don't have HF you can still join the Hel folks, which is basically just a reskinned Satanist cult.

warrior societies don't have jack on monastic societies dude.
they don't grant you any of the virtues (rather vices like wroth).
the only great traits you can get are ambitious and brave, while monastic give you all virtues pretty quickly and allow your char to give your children virtues aswell, making them better heirs in future.

I also forgot pilgrimages for Christians. you get +5 opinion and a good chance to gain zealous, aswell as events giving you kind, brave, patient(?), aswell as techpoints or cynical(not too great tbf.)

Being part of an order for most of your life, running theology focus and getting good relations and piety with the pope makes sainthood rather likely too.

Where do you get the idea there are only 2 traits to pick up? Have you played the lodges at all?

[Karlington]

Originally posted by 187:

you don't get access to monastic societies.

playing a norse Catholic from 769/800 is probably strongest start ingame. always being a benidicktine or Dominican ensures lots of virtues and very good heirs.
you can also convert wealth into Christian artifacts to get opinion and start buffs.

Hell you can even raid the pope for level 5 artifact (bones of Saint Peter) and get +10opinion with every Catholic for the rest of the game.

It's a lot of passive and static Boni, but still worth tbqh.

and of course crusades exist too.
free 6k gold and incredible trait if you do some fighting down there(and potentially a free kingdom)

The value of monastic societies has increased even further since they fixed the bug with attribute inheritance, and now children can inherit base attributes from both parents. Since the monastic societies give several base attribute points on average to a child, this can produce a stacking beneficial effect over the generations. :)

You can get this benefit by using a monastic society court tutor (using a forced favor invite if you are not Christian), but it still won't duplicate the positive virtue-adding and vice-removing effect on your own character, nor give you a chance to steal powerful religious artifacts from a monastery. :)

The Crusades also give you a chance to find the Holy Grail, one of the best artifacts in the game: +4 Health (!) and +5 opinion with everyone of the same religion. :)

Plus Christians have access to the Hermetic Society, which enables you to construct inventions and write Magnum Opus, which are also very powerful. With a Magnum Opus on Universal Panacea and the Holy Grail we're talking +5 Health here - an average total Health of 10 is almost unachievable otherwise. You'll have very long-lived characters who get sick less often and recover more quickkly. Very nice. :)

PS. "bonuses," not "boni" - "boni" is Dutch, not English. :)

Originally posted by Segovax:

You get Wolf Warriors if you have Holy Fury as a Norse Germanic. They are, frankly, an order of magnitude better than the Christian orders. As a Hero of the warrior lodge you are no longer subject to negative battle events, which is in itself an OP trait.

If you don't have HF you can still join the Hel folks, which is basically just a reskinned Satanist cult.

Warrior lodges have a very different focus from Christian monastic societies. The Christian ones are better for developing good characters and heirs, running stable realms, and getting artifacts.

Warrior lodges are better for warfare, duels, and conquest of new territory.

Depending on what your goal is for a particular character, one may be a better choice than the other.

I would advise people against joining demon worshippers, whether Hel or another one, since they tend to add negative traits, even congenital ones, which are incurable. For example Hunchback. This can happen even if you don't use the powers, but the risk increases if you use them. I generally only join those societies if I have a specific purpose (like when my ruler got Infirm a couple of months before immortality and I didn't want to live with that trait forever), then leave them as soon as I have accomplished it.

[Anarch Cassius]

Originally posted by 187:

they don't grant you any of the virtues (rather vices like wroth).
the only great traits you can get are ambitious and brave, while monastic give you all virtues pretty quickly and allow your char to give your children virtues aswell, making them better heirs in future.

You may be the first person I've seen to consider virtues/vices in character build, especially for pagans.

Patient and Diligent are really nice, but that's it. Proud and Humble are about the same and I'd rather be Wroth than Chaste. It often comes down to the character in particular. I wouldn't say that generally Virtues are any better than Vices, except maybe for making friends with Abrahamic characters and even that is pretty minor.

[Karlington]

Originally posted by Anarch Cassius:

Patient and Diligent are really nice, but that's it. Proud and Humble are about the same and I'd rather be Wroth than Chaste. It often comes down to the character in particular. I wouldn't say that generally Virtues are any better than Vices, except maybe for making friends with Abrahamic characters and even that is pretty minor.

Wroth is the opposite of Patient, not Chaste. Chaste is the opposite of Lustful.

If you have Charitable, Diligent, Patient, and Temperate you will get:


Diplomacy +5
Martial +1
Stewardship +4
Intrigue +2
Learning +2
+5 Vassal opinion bonus
+10 Church opinion bonus


That's a pretty big deal!

If you add Kind, you will lose the Intrigue bonus, but the Diplomacy bonus jumps up to +7, and the Vassal opinion bonus to +10.

I highly doubt that @187 and I are the only ones who consider personality traits in a character build, but if we are then I'd attribute that to a lack of knowledge among those who don't do so rather than anything else.

EDIT: I do agree with you that Humble and Proud are a wash. I do prefer Lustful to Chaste. Fortunately Lustful is easy to gain and Chaste are easy to lose if they are bothering you - spend five seconds on the Seduction focus. :)

[Anarch Cassius]

I wasn't talking about opposites, just pointing out that some Vices are often better than some Virtues. I consider personality traits, I just never thought of the Virtues category as much more than flavor.

But, yeah, there are a few really nice Virtues. So I can see where you are coming from.

[Karlington]

Originally posted by Anarch Cassius:

I wasn't talking about opposites, just pointing out that some Vices are often better than some Virtues. I consider personality traits, I just never thought of the Virtues category as much more than flavor.

But, yeah, there are a few really nice Virtues. So I can see where you are coming from.

Fair enough, I guess I interpreted your comment too strictly. :)

One thing to add: Diligent is probably the best one. Not just because it gives +1 to everything and +5 Vassal opinion, but because it's one of those traits with lots of "hidden" bonuses that can only be found by looking into the game files.

One of my personal favorites is that it reduces MTTH of all prosperity events, for example, and increases the chance of the really beneficial province modifiers. Overall one of the best traits in the game (leaving out the crazy good ones that are super hard to get like Genius and Immortal, of course). :)