So how is "deus vult" related to the white nationalist boogeyman again?

[Nintony]

i don't get it, could any of you gold status redditors explain this to me?

[Visi]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από ♠.brT:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Sheepify:

So every time some bad guy uses some phrase or meme the general population has been ironically using for years we're supposed to roll over and surrender it?

Yeah, that's totally not giving them legitimacy.

Edit: And, by the by, the same attitude turned the US from "live free or die hard REE!" to "deine papieren, bitte" post 9-11.

I mean, you, the individual can keep using it ironically as much as you want, you might get people looking at you with distrust, not knowing if you are serious or not, and you might also get people who laugh with you at the joke you are making, but they think you are actually serious about your comments, you do you man.

But the company, Paradox, needs to look out for its image, and obviously they don't want to be in any way associated with hate groups, and if that means potentially surrendering a term that your playerbase used as a joke for years, but then came a bunch of hate groups and used that term in a serious way, than that is exactly what they will have to do.

I mean, its kinda similar to what happened to the Swastika, it existed prior to the Nazis, but the historial origins of the symbol are pretty much worthless to the public, and it is now only a symbol of the Nazis.

I don't live in crazy town, so no one is going to look at me with distrust. Paradox needs to look out for its image? Yeah, cause they look reeeeeeeally good right now, right? Maybe in the eyes of people that don't play their games and in the twisted eyes of the media, but spitting in the face of your fanbase is generally a bad thing to do. How do you not understand that you GIVE these people power? Do you really think whitewashing history is a sensible thing to do?

That example doesn't hold up at all. Even if we run with that, Swastikas should still be in games if there are games with Nazis in them. You are essentially arguing that Swastikas should also be removed from all games to avoid controversy. Even then, the 12 people using "Deus Vult" sincerely with "white nationalist" intent are not comparable to the flipping Nazis. Allowing these people to redefine centuries old terms is pure insanity.

[♠.brT]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Sheepify:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από ♠.brT:

The problem of allowing even jokes that have historical hateful context attached to them is that it is impossible to separate the 99% of the people just joking, to the 1% who take it serious and find it conforting to be among those who also use the term.

That's a self-made problem.

When only a statistically insignificant fraction of a population coopts anything cultural, the LAST thing you want to do is had it over to them.

Because not only are you legitimizing their existence (and importance) in that way, but you're also taking away from the majority, no matter how insignificant it may seem.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από ♠.brT:

And ocasionally that 1% might draw the kind of attention to your game that might do your game and your company more harm than any good.

And, yet again, this is only an "issue" because there's a whole "outrage industry" out there churning out "controversies" like that.

Ignore both of those, and suddenly it's not an issue. Or, since we're talking about corporate PR, simply deny them legitimacy.

THAT is how you win, not rolling over.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από ♠.brT:

Such was the case with the New Zealand shooter, who used some words and memes in his manifesto that ultimately drew the name of Paradox as well as its Games Crusader Kings, and even to a smaller extent EUIV to be in articles talking about a horrible attacked that killed 51 people.

So? One person gets to dictate the whole society what is allowed and what isn't?

The mere fact that we're even discussing that maniac's importance means we're already going along with his plans, intentionally or not.

This how you win? what? there is no victory in this mate... Literally, how the hell do you want a company like Paradox, to "win" when their company name and their product name is in an article about a mass shooting that killed 51 people? serious, maybe you are some PR genius that i'm not, but i don't see a victory there no matter which way you go about it dealing with it, the moment your game name is posted in an article that will be seen by the wider world you already lost.

[Visi]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από ♠.brT:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Visi:

So now, let's just allow mass shooters to dictate to us what words are and are not okay to use. Also, give fringe groups with a couple dozen members at best this power. Because these are great ideas.

OR

Grow a spine, ignore the faux controversy of people getting upset about a historical phrase being used in a historical game, and behave like a rational adult. This is a game where you can imprison and murder children in horrific ways. The trailer for the new game as a baby being assassinated FFS, but OH NO, can't have "Deus Vult" in there! That would be "hateful." It truly is a clown world.

I don't care one way or the other. Just offering my 2cents on the reason that PDX has for trying to clean their game up so that it doesn't get associated with hateful people.

And worth mentioning that according to Paradox, the term isn't going to disappear from CK3, they just want to make sure that it is only used in its proper context.

Clean up their game. The game where you can commit genocide and force women into marrying you and bearing your children. The game where you wage holy wars against one another. The game where you can make sacrifices to Lucifer. Gotta clean that up, hm?

False. That PR statement was nebulous, and really boiled down to "we haven't fully decided whether or not to censor the phrase from the game." In order to believe that statement at face value, you have to look at it and nothing else, and give it a very charitable interpretation.

[Devoras]

Ehh that's kind of silly. The default position should be to assume that a game company is not intentionally endorsing hate groups, unless they do so explicitly. It's a very strange world that we live in now.

Though to be fair, I believe a huge part of the problem is game journalists, they keep trying to ask loaded questions and push the need to talk about how a game pushes the ideas from their particular regressive ideology, instead of asking questions about the games themselves. The one 'reporter' that posted the interview questions that caused this deus vult problem is clearly an idiot, as they state their intent to continue trying to report on whether the game is 'sensitive' enough instead of whether the game is good or not.

It seems this isn't a paradox problem this time, it's another games journalist problem. They made an official response stating there was a miscommunication about the term deus vult and that they haven't made any decisions about it.

[76561188078797539]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Visi:

Even if we run with that, Swastikas should still be in games if there are games with Nazis in them.

Unfortunately that can't happen if you want your game sold in Germany, because they have laws prohibiting showcasing of Nazi symbolism. While there are exceptions in the law for sake of historical representation, period computer games aren't considered "historical" enough.

Something I personally consider as moronic as the current "Deus Vult" debacle, because ultimately no matter the original intent, all it achieves is white-washing the prevalence of Nazi support in contemporary Germany, but since the new party line appears to be "Nazis were only a tiny minority and Germans in general totally were innocent" BS there we are.

Just another example how manipulation of public perception is done.

[Megiddo]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από ♠.brT:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Sheepify:

So every time some bad guy uses some phrase or meme the general population has been ironically using for years we're supposed to roll over and surrender it?

Yeah, that's totally not giving them legitimacy.

Edit: And, by the by, the same attitude turned the US from "live free or die hard REE!" to "deine papieren, bitte" post 9-11.

I mean, you, the individual can keep using it ironically as much as you want, you might get people looking at you with distrust, not knowing if you are serious or not, and you might also get people who laugh with you at the joke you are making, but they think you are actually serious about your comments, you do you man.

But the company, Paradox, needs to look out for its image, and obviously they don't want to be in any way associated with hate groups, and if that means potentially surrendering a term that your player base used as a joke for years, but then came a bunch of hate groups and used that term in a serious way, than that is exactly what they will have to do.

I mean, its kinda similar to what happened to the Swastika, it existed prior to the Nazis, but the historical origins of the symbol are pretty much worthless to the public, and it is now only a symbol of the Nazis.

That would make sense if their game wasn't built on Incest, Murder, and stealing land because you want to make your borders look aesthetically pleasing. Now paradox's player base will never attempt this stuff in real life so the argument of protecting their image and player base isn't that strong. And as a person whose culture and religion was co-opted by Nazi's, It saddens me when white people come to our country look at Buddha and cry that we defaced his statue because they were too lazy to study history. Instead of censoring and demonizing icons and letters we should be educating people on History. Which would be the actual point of the game, not the incest.

[Visi]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από ♠.brT:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Sheepify:

That's a self-made problem.

When only a statistically insignificant fraction of a population coopts anything cultural, the LAST thing you want to do is had it over to them.

Because not only are you legitimizing their existence (and importance) in that way, but you're also taking away from the majority, no matter how insignificant it may seem.

And, yet again, this is only an "issue" because there's a whole "outrage industry" out there churning out "controversies" like that.

Ignore both of those, and suddenly it's not an issue. Or, since we're talking about corporate PR, simply deny them legitimacy.

THAT is how you win, not rolling over.

So? One person gets to dictate the whole society what is allowed and what isn't?

The mere fact that we're even discussing that maniac's importance means we're already going along with his plans, intentionally or not.

This how you win? what? there is no victory in this mate... Literally, how the hell do you want a company like Paradox, to "win" when their company name and their product name is in an article about a mass shooting that killed 51 people? serious, maybe you are some PR genius that i'm not, but i don't see a victory there no matter which way you go about it dealing with it, the moment your game name is posted in an article that will be seen by the wider world you already lost.

Tell that to WarHorse Studios, who, when hounded by media lunatics looking for controversy, told them to eff off. They had colossal support and the media moved on to be outraged about something else within weeks.

[76561188078797539]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από ♠.brT:

This how you win? what? there is no victory in this mate...

I consider refusal to allow some fringe lunatics dictate societal development a victory.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από ♠.brT:

Literally, how the hell do you want a company like Paradox, to "win" when their company name and their product name is in an article about a mass shooting that killed 51 people?

By fighting idiots that try to push such narrative in the first place.

The way you don't see any blowback against Spyro game :P

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από ♠.brT:

maybe you are some PR genius that i'm not, but i don't see a victory there no matter which way you go about it dealing with it, the moment your game name is posted in an article that will be seen by the wider world you already lost.

What do you think happens when companies constantly show it merely takes a very vocal tiny minority to affect their behavior?

a) the REE crowd goes away, some semblance of normalcy sets in
b) things get worse

Pick one.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Visi:

Tell that to WarHorse Studios, who, when hounded by media lunatics looking for controversy, told them to eff off.

Exactly.

[♠.brT]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Visi:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από ♠.brT:

I mean, you, the individual can keep using it ironically as much as you want, you might get people looking at you with distrust, not knowing if you are serious or not, and you might also get people who laugh with you at the joke you are making, but they think you are actually serious about your comments, you do you man.

But the company, Paradox, needs to look out for its image, and obviously they don't want to be in any way associated with hate groups, and if that means potentially surrendering a term that your playerbase used as a joke for years, but then came a bunch of hate groups and used that term in a serious way, than that is exactly what they will have to do.

I mean, its kinda similar to what happened to the Swastika, it existed prior to the Nazis, but the historial origins of the symbol are pretty much worthless to the public, and it is now only a symbol of the Nazis.

I don't live in crazy town, so no one is going to look at me with distrust. Paradox needs to look out for its image? Yeah, cause they look reeeeeeeally good right now, right? Maybe in the eyes of people that don't play their games and in the twisted eyes of the media, but spitting in the face of your fanbase is generally a bad thing to do. How do you not understand that you GIVE these people power? Do you really think whitewashing history is a sensible thing to do?

That example doesn't hold up at all. Even if we run with that, Swastikas should still be in games if there are games with Nazis in them. You are essentially arguing that Swastikas should also be removed from all games to avoid controversy. Even then, the 12 people using "Deus Vult" sincerely with "white nationalist" intent are not comparable to the flipping Nazis. Allowing these people to redefine centuries old terms is pure insanity.

First of all, i'm not arguing that, that's a nice stawman there mate, you made it yourself?

Second of all, again, Paradox isn't removing Deus Vult from CK3, they just want to make that it is used in its proper context.
Like the Seastikas, they are used in videogames (though i'm not sure if they are in Germany) that feature the Nazis, but the point that i was making with that argument was mostly about what the people see in that Symbol, not about if that symbol is allowed to exist at all.
When you show a Swastika for the average citizen of "pick your country" here, they will tell you its a nazi symbol, you and I know that the Nazis didn't created the symbol, but it doesn't matter, because due to what happened, to the wider world that will forever be a Nazi symbol.

[♠.brT]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Visi:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από ♠.brT:

This how you win? what? there is no victory in this mate... Literally, how the hell do you want a company like Paradox, to "win" when their company name and their product name is in an article about a mass shooting that killed 51 people? serious, maybe you are some PR genius that i'm not, but i don't see a victory there no matter which way you go about it dealing with it, the moment your game name is posted in an article that will be seen by the wider world you already lost.

Tell that to WarHorse Studios, who, when hounded by media lunatics looking for controversy, told them to eff off. They had colossal support and the media moved on to be outraged about something else within weeks.

I maybe ill informed here, so please correct me if i'm wrong, but are you talking about that "controversy" surrounding the lack of diversity in the characters for Kingdom Come: Deliverance?
I ask this because when i typed WarHorse studios controversy onto google this was the first result, so i have to assume nothing "worse" than this happened, but please correct me if that is incorrect.

But if that's the example you are giving, wtf? serious, this is not a comparison, this isn't even a thing to compare to.
Crusader kings 2, was named, on articles discussing the mass shooting that killed 51 people, i think the stakes in the "PR" nightmare are a bit different between these two examples.

[76561188078797539]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από ♠.brT:

Second of all, again, Paradox isn't removing Deus Vult from CK3, they just want to make that it is used in its proper context.

Unless you know some P'dox execs, this is flat our wrong.

We don't know what their final decision will be.

The fact that they even started this ambiguity about presence of a historical element in their games is already pretty telling, though.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από ♠.brT:

Like the Seastikas, they are used in videogames (though i'm not sure if they are in Germany) that feature the Nazis,

No they aren't. Or, at least, extremely rarely if ever.

In fact, there is a recent Panzer General remake that had to remove all swastikas from its art to get unbanned by Steam :P

Until a court case settles this one way or another (because no politician will want to burn political capital on it), Nazi symbolism is verbotten in any computer game sold in Germany, period. No swastikas, no SS insignia, and probably a lot more things I'm unaware of.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από ♠.brT:

but the point that i was making with that argument was mostly about what the people see in that Symbol, not about if that symbol is allowed to exist at all.

Irrelevant technicality.

Especially when the symbol itself is factually established to be part of the period depicted.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από ♠.brT:

When you show a Swastika for the average citizen of "pick your country" here, they will tell you its a nazi symbol,

Go to Asia and be shocked how many more people will not.

Stop making claims based on your limited understanding of things.

Also, even if we restrict the above to Western countries, where the outcome you presented is that much more likely, don't you think it should be the responsibility of such a society to educate its members on the incorrect perception they harbor?

You won't do that without a discourse, and that can't happen if you either ban or just ignore the subject matter.

[AdahnGorion]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από ♠.brT:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Visi:

Tell that to WarHorse Studios, who, when hounded by media lunatics looking for controversy, told them to eff off. They had colossal support and the media moved on to be outraged about something else within weeks.

I maybe ill informed here, so please correct me if i'm wrong, but are you talking about that "controversy" surrounding the lack of diversity in the characters for Kingdom Come: Deliverance?
I ask this because when i typed WarHorse studios controversy onto google this was the first result, so i have to assume nothing "worse" than this happened, but please correct me if that is incorrect.

But if that's the example you are giving, wtf? serious, this is not a comparison, this isn't even a thing to compare to.
Crusader kings 2, was named, on articles discussing the mass shooting that killed 51 people, i think the stakes in the "PR" nightmare are a bit different between these two examples.

Chop chop

People are over sensetive now a days and they want everybody and everything to be included in well everything.. That is why they were angry about KC:D. I loved it, it actually felt very "historical" in its setting. Maybe that is just me.

[♠.brT]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Sheepify:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από ♠.brT:

This how you win? what? there is no victory in this mate...

I consider refusal to allow some fringe lunatics dictate societal development a victory.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από ♠.brT:

Literally, how the hell do you want a company like Paradox, to "win" when their company name and their product name is in an article about a mass shooting that killed 51 people?

By fighting idiots that try to push such narrative in the first place.

The way you don't see any blowback against Spyro game :P

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από ♠.brT:

maybe you are some PR genius that i'm not, but i don't see a victory there no matter which way you go about it dealing with it, the moment your game name is posted in an article that will be seen by the wider world you already lost.

What do you think happens when companies constantly show it merely takes a very vocal tiny minority to affect their behavior?

a) the REE crowd goes away, some semblance of normalcy sets in
b) things get worse

Pick one.

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Visi:

Tell that to WarHorse Studios, who, when hounded by media lunatics looking for controversy, told them to eff off.

Exactly.

Meh,

overall i think the world would be a lot better if they were more like this guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ussCHoQttyQ

I'm not sure we are in the same page here, the people who caused Paradox to take a step back and evaluate the usage of that term in their next game are not really doing it to impact Paradox or its games, they are using it to impact the real world we live in.

[76561188078797539]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από ♠.brT:

I'm not sure we are in the same page here, the people who caused Paradox to take a step back and evaluate the usage of that term in their next game are not really doing it to impact Paradox or its games, they are using it to impact the real world we live in.

And that's somehow better?!

Not to mention that they are literally playing into the hands of people they claim to oppose with that stunt.

Frankly, personally I think it's just another clickbait "controversy" from the usual suspects combining greed with fringe ideology, though that still doesn't make it any less damaging.

You know, the usual "game journalist" nowadays :P

[GodzThirdLeg]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από ♠.brT:

The problem of allowing even jokes that have historical hateful context attached to them is that it is impossible to separate the 99% of the people just joking, to the 1% who take it serious and find it conforting to be among those who also use the term.

And ocasionally that 1% might draw the kind of attention to your game that might do your game and your company more harm than any good.
Such was the case with the New Zealand shooter, who used some words and memes in his manifesto that ultimately drew the name of Paradox as well as its Games Crusader Kings, and even to a smaller extent EUIV to be in articles talking about a horrible attacked that killed 51 people.

Obviously not the kind of article you want the name of your product attached to.

This is the delicate line Paradox has to walk on, they make money from history, and allowing players to engage in said history, even some of the more horrible and dark sides of our history, they need to keep that focus, but at the same time, make sure that people don't use their games to spread hateful mesages or ideologies that might caused Paradox and its games to receive the kind of attention that no major entertainment company wishes to receive.

This is the exact reasoning a company would use, but the thing is that every time a company does back down to the two badly researched articles they also will lose a lot of trust from their fans, which will cost them money. And each consecutive time they do this the loss in trust multiplies. Which considering PDXs recent record will soon start to really hurt them.

Also stop giving the 1% of idiots more power than they have, because otherwise they will acomplish something like the prideflag being a hate symbol in the near future. In my opinion letting those nutjobs take away words, is just like looking away while they run through the streets killing innocent people. We as a society have to stop backing down to those ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ and start holding our ground or soon we will be with our backs against a wall.