Swearing Fealty

[Adam Apples]

Do any of you kings swear fealty to emperors for their 'protection' (ha!)?

Is it ever a worthwhile endeavour? More pain than it's worth? Or is it to case by case to speak in generals?

[gregoryk64]

Depends on how strong you are and if there's a benefit to being part of the empire. For example, it's much easier to press de Jure claims against another king who is a vassal of the empire from within than if you are outside and then have to press your claim against the emperor. Or if you are seeking the emperor title for yourself, there's no way to do that from outside except maybe a very lucky marriage pact and inheritance. But if you are inside and the emperor title succession is elective, you have a much better chance. Or if it is not elective, start a faction for elective succession, succeed, and then have a shot at it.

With early starts, sometimes when you are an independent duke and threatened by neighboring muslims, swearing fealty to a nearby Catholic king might be your only chance of surviving and eventually becoming powerful enough to defend yourself on your own.

[Banecroft]

I have not done it but I imagine I would if the choice was swear fealty or game over.

[Scrapper-Lock]

I did it to stop the Byzantines from eating me alive. I'm now their most powerful vassal by far.

It's really hard to get out from under them because of their tendency to snowball. I've been trying but they are always more powerful than I am so it has been tough to go independent.

I wouldn't mind it so much except he seems to have imposed some rule preventing me from attacking the other Byz vassals, which has stopped me from eating him out from the inside the way I was trying to. It's quite annoying now, so I am going to probably declare independence first chance I get.

[gregoryk64]

Originally posted by steven.viscido:

I did it to stop the Byzantines from eating me alive. I'm now their most powerful vassal by far.

It's really hard to get out from under them because of their tendency to snowball. I've been trying but they are always more powerful than I am so it has been tough to go independent.

I wouldn't mind it so much except he seems to have imposed some rule preventing me from attacking the other Byz vassals, which has stopped me from eating him out from the inside the way I was trying to. It's quite annoying now, so I am going to probably declare independence first chance I get.

I tried playing as a Byzantine vassal from a 769 start a couple of times, and it is the worst. First, the Byzzies start with imperial administration and every de Jure duchy is a viceroyalty. You die, the title goes right back to the Basileus and gets handed out to someone else. Second, the game starts with the prohibition of inter-realm wars, so you even if you have claims against your fellow vassals you can't press them. Soon after the law is passed that vassals are not allowed to wage war outside the realm either.

Of course, factions are always springing up to increase council power to change these laws, but they almost always end in defeat for the faction. The only upside is that elective succession gets forced fairly early, so there's at least a chance you may win the elective and become Basileus. But other than that, I can't think of anything to recommend it.

[Scrapper-Lock]

Well it is the 1040s and they haven't yet stopped me from declaring outside the realm, though they did stop me from declaring inside now.

I want to declare independence but he has like 15K more troops than I do at this point, so I doubt I would be successful.

[Banecroft]

I hate playing as a vassal to the ERE, especially if you do well and make yourself into a king (pro tip: fabricate a claim on Gotland and take it and then create the Duchy of Visby title so you can be a proper Duke instead of a viceroy) because the Emperor constantly hands your count vassals viceroyalties thus breaking them out of your dejure land. It gets really annoying if you are waiting for these lands to drift into your title.

Steven.viscido, can't you start an independance faction and get enough people to join so you can win your freedom?

[that guy]

I like swearing fealty to empires because I get more prestige per month by being a councillor and commander. I dislike being an empire because I'm sort of OCD about keeping de jure borders, and dealing with 5-6 dukes is all I can handle. Of course, for some reason most realms always go into elective succession and I end up emperor anyway...

[Das Boot]

Originally posted by Adam Apples:

Do any of you kings swear fealty to emperors for their 'protection' (ha!)?

Is it ever a worthwhile endeavour? More pain than it's worth? Or is it to case by case to speak in generals?

Once as King of Lombardy I swore fealty to the Byzantine Emperor so as to prevent him from eating away at my realm.

[Shai-Hulud]

Play as Jerusalem, conquer north until border byz. Swear fealty, conquer muslim land knowing that any jihad will have to be called on Byz. Wait until opportune time or until you are stronger. War for elective. War for emperor.

Hopefully you planned this all out to have a younger ruler achieve the empire title, as you will need at least 10 years to change succession laws. Last time I did this my ruler died six years in and I lost all land outside de jure Jerusalem.

[Kraek]

If you are a single count, no doubt about it.

Otherwise, not so sure. I'm inclined to say no. Your new liege could just start taking your titles as a tyrant rather than fight for it with truce(that the ai respects.. overal its far more honorable than us, humans) to protect you from further harm. A lot happens in 5 to 10 years that turn the table.

[Random]

you also have to think about troop obligations when you swear fealty.

Your realm as an independent gives you 100% of your troops, under a leige with a higher troop levy obligation law, may see that drop drastically to 50-60%, and that will not apply to your vassals, meanig it actually makes your realm more unstable for potential revolts.

A king is fine on his own next to an emperor. just look at italy for that example next to byzantine. it's not hard to kick the emperors teeth in as a human player.

as a duke it would honestly depend on your own demesne vs your surroundings, I sure wouldn't want to be an independent duke beside an empire, especially if it held any dejure lands within the kingdom dejure I reside in, so that would be a simple fealty swear to get the kingdom from the inside.

there are alot of pros and cons, swearing fealty as italy to byzantine can allow you to take sicily from the inside thus putting you in position to make the empire of italia with a quick revolt for independence, but byzantine is honestly a horrible example due to their imperial laws from day 1, which will restrict quite a bit.

Basically you would need to be in a crappy kingdom, or weak as hell to even consider swearing fealty to the 2-3 empires available. at 1066, it wouldn't be a terrible choice to swear featly as france with the HRE, as you will be under war from them anyway for some dejure territory, and it also places you in position to rot them from the inside.

[Valentine Michael Smith]

if you're the same religion as a nearby kingdom and they don't have claims on any of your stuff you shouldn't have to worry. If you are worried about that then marry into an alliance with another empire or that empire to form a NAP. As a king marriage offers are plentiful because of how prestigious it is to marry a relative of a king.

[Scrapper-Lock]

Originally posted by Banecroft:

Steven.viscido, can't you start an independance faction and get enough people to join so you can win your freedom?

I think I can with my next king, since he has a high diplo and should be able to make friends more easily. My current king is not so good in the diplo department so I didn't even try. I knew no one would join.

It's tough since I am working at like -18 due to different culture/different religion as a base. Just bringing them up to +0 takes some work (the guys outside my Kingdom -- the ones inside like me well enough).

[Talezteller]

Originally posted by Adam Apples:

Do any of you kings swear fealty to emperors for their 'protection' (ha!)?

Is it ever a worthwhile endeavour? More pain than it's worth? Or is it to case by case to speak in generals?

I've only done this once as the Duke of Armenia to the Byzantine emperor after breaking free of the Muslim king of Armenia. Worked well enough in keeping me safe from Muslim backlash.
I then schemed my way up into becoming Despot of Armenia (hereditary, unlike all other byzantine themes)