Playing tall

[Lärvilä w/out A:s]

As the title says, is it possible to play as small but immensely rich and powerful nation?
I don't own this game but I have been watching some let's plays and every one of them just go ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ crazy about expansion and allways end up as a multiemperor.

So that has left me wondering is it even possible to play i.e. merchant republic Venice and just pay or bribe someone else or hire ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ mercenaries to do your dirty work. And at the same time abstain from expansion and trying to stay as a size of a small kingdom due roolplay purposes.

Or do I have to have huge empire with lots of vassal kings to make this kind of "you do what I say, when I say" thing to work? I guess one way around that would be having an immortal ruler with lots of tribute states, right? Because tributes gain independency when ruler dies, in this case never?

And speaking of roleplay, is there any way to make elephant retinues work? Yea, yea I know pure pike retinues are the best but I so want to have hundreds of elephants to trample down my enemies!

[Manthexxx]

Well I think if you want to make the most money possible with the least amount of land you go for a merchant republic, but that probably doesn't compare to the income of a huge emperor.

Your best bet is to become emperor asap and delegate, so that you can keep your king vassals happy easily and get their money. You also want to have a merchant republic inside of your empire. Give all bishoprics to one single bishop, so that you only have to please him etc.

But yeah, that's still a considerable amount of land to own. What you could do is become an empire, transfer all city vassals to your merchan republic vassal, save game, load game and play as the Doge.

[Nussbaum]

I'm currently playing as Venice and I think this works, atleast in the short run. Venice starts out with 1 castle, a temple and 3 cities, with plots for two extra holdings. Add to that you also have a mansion that provides levy and income.

I build 2 cities on the land plots, and now (in the year 1000) I have a net income of roughly 100-150 gold per month with about 30k in troops from personal levy and retinue.The levy that vassals provide is very low because (as I understand the mechanics) the "serene republic of Venice" dejure area is just Venice. My vasals therefore only provide about 1k of troops.

In comparison, the Byzantines have a levy of about 30-35k and the Mesopotamia (who is absolutely huge in land area like the middle east and iran) have a levy of around 40-45k. Though their incomes and treasury are much lower than mine, and I can easily add 15k in mercenaries to make up the difference.

I don't know how it holds up in the long run though. One reason Venice can keep up with the largest empires is that the income is enough to max out your holdings very quickly (as far as the technology allowes ofc).

[Zsrai]

Republics are the stereotypical "tall" in CK2, but you can do pretty well as a small/medium Kingdom too. I honestly usually only expand to a few Kingdoms or a small Empire (like Britannia or Hispania), if even that large, limiting myself to a geographical area. Sometimes I play even smaller, like sticking with just the Kingdom of Pommerania or something, depending on my mood and goals. You can focus on infrastructure, at least to a point, by just spending your money on holdings and improvements. You can get a good sized levy just by fully upgrading everything.

If you want to stay more autocratic, then you definitely need to stay small. Something like the size of Ireland, since you can almost hold the entire Kingdom in your demesne limit. Denmark too. I find that tends to get real boring, real quick though. The lack of vassal management takes away a good sized chunk of the game.

[Valentine Michael Smith]

this isn't a 4x game

[Fredericks of Cursewood]

The way I think of playing tall is having a number of baronies in my capital county and upgrading them as fast as I can. I'n my India campaign, my emperor has 5 baronies in the capital county of which each can kick out a little over 3000 troops. Throw in a retinue of 15,000 and I can have an army of 30,000 that is ready to go on day 1 from one county.

I have noble obligations shifted to taxes, but to be honest I should have it shifted more to taxes and then just use mercenaries and my retinue. Some of the levies never make it to the battle before the wars are won. Rasising levies just lowers opinions. I only use them in emergency and for very short periods of time.

[HellFalcon]

If you want to play tall your best bet is the duchy of Sicily.
As a mere duke I was able to assemble army of around 20k troops and kick Basileus out of my lands.

[Merkatz]

To maximize MR income, you want the 'connected to capital' bonus in your trade posts, which requires connecting sea zones with a 'land route'. It encourages expansion to a degree.

You can paint the map or you can become a thalassocracy via city and county conquests.

You can build "tall". Eventually, however, the particularly large Feudal/Iqta and nomad realms will wreck you.

Edit: For me a "tall" game would be holding a nice duchy, fill it with castles and play the marriage and/or Inquisition game. Try to put your dynasty on every throne in Europe while terriorizing fellow nobles with intrigue to keep your (or your) liege's realm stable.

[Myrmuz [IRL]]

If you become the Germanic Fylkir, but remain King only of a de jure kingdom/duchy then you are able to declare great holy wars against infidels which effectively means you are in control of many territories outside your own domain. It's fun to use the AI to spread a religion instead of doing it yourself. I did this myself as king of Norway and converted most of Europe to Germanic.
Upgrades to your holdings can also be done relatively quickly through raiding.

[MrBonkers]

Just go haesteinn -> sardinia -> crete make crete your capital and push prosperity to the max (for additional holding slots) and raid (to build those baronies) and youre playing as tall as it gets ^^
In my current game i managed to take almost all of the ere after it was taken by the mongols..
Ps: take hermetics all the way...for playing tall there is no better choice

[Red Earth]

People have talked about "the marriage game" where you stay as a duke or king but marry children off to rulers, heirs, or ambitious claimants and establish your dynasty all over the map. More than once I've had my dynasty end up ruling a kingdom somewhere while I still haven't worked my way up from being a count. That's one way to keep you're personal holdings small but achieve something significant.

[Lärvilä w/out A:s]

So in a way it's possible to play as a tall nation, just gotta max out all the holdings and gain tech advantage. Thank you for info.

Now all I have to do is to wait for the summer sales so I can grab the game and the dlcs for a reasonable price..

[Zsrai]

Originally posted by Red Earth:

People have talked about "the marriage game" where you stay as a duke or king but marry children off to rulers, heirs, or ambitious claimants and establish your dynasty all over the map. More than once I've had my dynasty end up ruling a kingdom somewhere while I still haven't worked my way up from being a count. That's one way to keep you're personal holdings small but achieve something significant.

Definitely this. I like to blob on the Dynasty map mode (especially as Christian) while keeping my color on the Political map mode small and tidy.

[aelfric]

Well the demesne size is like playing tall

[Yaldabaoth]

Originally posted by Lärvilä w/out A:s:

So in a way it's possible to play as a tall nation, just gotta max out all the holdings and gain tech advantage. Thank you for info.

Now all I have to do is to wait for the summer sales so I can grab the game and the dlcs for a reasonable price..

That's reasonable for some time. But there is a limit to how tall you can be and large empires will reach that limit, too. A bit later but playing wide (at least kingdom size) is pretty much mandatory or you will be eaten.