Genuine question. Where the hell is my damage?

[Kligan]

I was doing ice abyss HR runs as a fighter. And my last couple PvP encounters left me genuinely baffled.

Allow me to elaborate.

I was trying a spear build, with the focus on action speed, dex and hp. Recurve bow as a secondary. I call it "ranger cosplay" build. Had about 34% PDR, 16% AS and around 148 HP. Worked great in pve, did a series of successful runs. Then I encountered an unfriendly rogue. I retreated to the next module and set up ambush in a dark corner that I prepared beforehand. The rogue walker right into it. While he pulled out a torch, I started swinging. Hit him with full 3 strikes combo. In the meantime, the rogue took out his daggers, shanked me 4 times and I'm dead.
I watched back the replay, and I took about 60% of his health.
Ok.. well. That is annoying, but whatever. We go again.

Back at my stash I rebuilt my kit. This time it was medium armour with focus on hp, str and action speed. Epic viking sword with additional weapon damage and phys damage bonus, heater shield also with additional weapon damage. In total it was about 37% PDR without a shield out, 149 HP, 12% AS and 98% MS. Shield mastery and counter attack.
I went on, again, all good and dandy in pve, clearing fast and easy. Then I met a bard that immediately started shooting me with his bow. I kited him around the corner. He ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up and got too close. I popped sprint and second wind and begin hitting him. He tried to run but my swings were already connecting with his back. He turned around and begin trading damage in melee with me. I hit him 5 times consecutively, and then died.
Watching back the replay.. I took a THIRD of his health! He had 36% PDR with his buckler out, and 151 hp. And he straight up out traded me in damage with a massive margine!

Where is my damage in PvP? Why is it as if I'm swinging with a pool noodle?
And yes, I'm aware of the limb damage, so I try to aim for the head or the center of mass.
Can someone explain to me, what is the punchline of this joke that is my damage on a fighter?

[Flavalicious]

Viking swords a terrible choice for fighter, you can't swing it fast enough. If your going sword its Falchion in 90% of situations, with a honourable mention to arming swords/short swords if your running some sort of hyper fast attack speed slayer build. Spear is also a bit questionable, it can be used but its far from the meta choices, mainly because fighters are just slow AF and if you want to use a 2 hander other then a longsword, other classes do it better.

For all weapons in this game, there are multiple sections of the in game model that have different "damage values", the highest damage section is called the sweet spot by the community. Odds are if your landing alot of its and doing ♥♥♥♥ all for damage, your making contact with the weaker points of your weapon. Can see this attacking the test dummies in the lobby, the difference between a sweet spot hit and non sweet spot hit can be 5-10 damage on its own. Factor in the difference between a head shot and a arm shot, combined and you can have a variation of like 15-30 damage per swing, which over the course of an entire fight can easily be the difference between winning and losing.

Personally I'd recommend just class swapping for solos, fighter is a frustrating class to 1v1 with, I ran it for a few seasons as my main and was much happier once I picked a class with more mobility and options lol.

[Kligan]

Originally posted by Flavalicious:

Viking swords a terrible choice for fighter, you can't swing it fast enough. If your going sword its Falchion in 90% of situations, with a honourable mention to arming swords/short swords if your running some sort of hyper fast attack speed slayer build. Spear is also a bit questionable, it can be used but its far from the meta choices, mainly because fighters are just slow AF and if you want to use a 2 hander other then a longsword, other classes do it better.

For all weapons in this game, there are multiple sections of the in game model that have different "damage values", the highest damage section is called the sweet spot by the community. Odds are if your landing alot of its and doing ♥♥♥♥ all for damage, your making contact with the weaker points of your weapon. Can see this attacking the test dummies in the lobby, the difference between a sweet spot hit and non sweet spot hit can be 5-10 damage on its own. Factor in the difference between a head shot and a arm shot, combined and you can have a variation of like 15-30 damage per swing, which over the course of an entire fight can easily be the difference between winning and losing.

Personally I'd recommend just class swapping for solos, fighter is a frustrating class to 1v1 with, I ran it for a few seasons as my main and was much happier once I picked a class with more mobility and options lol.

I did calculations with viking sword and arming sword, just to see if its AS bad as people claim. Arming sword wins on dps but by a small margin. Viking sword has a bit of an advantage with shield mastery because it makes the next swing super fast. But yes, it's still worse overall, I just had an epic viking sword with tripple good roll lying around.

Regarding the sweet spots... I'm aware yes. And The bard was trading with me at the same distance - he was using arming sword. So it's absolutely astounding how much he out-traded me, especially considering I had two-hit lead on him.

I just can't put my finger on what is even the purpose of a fighter? He gets bullied by wizards and warlocks, kited by rangers and bards unless the build is no PDR and all move speed, and out-traded in melee encounters in damage. Throw in a mix janky-ass shield blocking with weapons clipping through and needing to see the future if you have more than 50ms ping.

And yeah you can always point a finger on super-sweaty players like Ryan6DaysAWeek or Blinn. But the same can be said about any class - there are always super sweaty players that perform well.
But even so, both Ryan and Blinn seem to die a lot anyway.

[epreber0809]

I said something about this the other day. I think the knowledge on a fighter is wasted points. One of the arguments was so they can "be well rounded" so they can drink Invis pots. Sure, the invisible potion takes 15 knowledge to drink. Why does something you just uncork and drink have a stat requirement? I'd like to see the knowledge requirement dropped or removed and those knowledge points dispersed on more useful stats for a fighter. even if its taking everything from 15 to 16.

All fighters are locked into taking the same skills to be viable and almost all the same perks for either S/B or a 2h build. So there aren't a wide range/well rounded types of fighters out there anyway. Like it is advertised to be so.

[Aldain]

Originally posted by epreber0809:

Sure, the invisible potion takes 15 knowledge to drink. Why does something you just uncork and drink have a stat requirement?

Mostly to prevent invisible Barbarians and Rangers I'd wager, landmine Rogues are already irritating enough, having to worry about there being a random Barbarian sitting in the corner suddenly killing you in one hit would just be insufferable, and Ranger getting to line up a full volley to your head while invisible is also a massive danger.

[Dirge]

Originally posted by Aldain:

Originally posted by epreber0809:

Sure, the invisible potion takes 15 knowledge to drink. Why does something you just uncork and drink have a stat requirement?

Mostly to prevent invisible Barbarians and Rangers I'd wager, landmine Rogues are already irritating enough, having to worry about there being a random Barbarian sitting in the corner suddenly killing you in one hit would just be insufferable, and Ranger getting to line up a full volley to your head while invisible is also a massive danger.

I mean you can do that with Barbs anyway by standing at a corner or on the other side of a door, lol.

[Kangaroo Salesman]

Originally posted by Aldain:

Originally posted by epreber0809:

Sure, the invisible potion takes 15 knowledge to drink. Why does something you just uncork and drink have a stat requirement?

Mostly to prevent invisible Barbarians and Rangers I'd wager, landmine Rogues are already irritating enough, having to worry about there being a random Barbarian sitting in the corner suddenly killing you in one hit would just be insufferable, and Ranger getting to line up a full volley to your head while invisible is also a massive danger.

You're correct. Invis barbarians, were a horrible thing to witness.

[Kligan]

Originally posted by Aldain:

Originally posted by epreber0809:

Sure, the invisible potion takes 15 knowledge to drink. Why does something you just uncork and drink have a stat requirement?

Mostly to prevent invisible Barbarians and Rangers I'd wager, landmine Rogues are already irritating enough, having to worry about there being a random Barbarian sitting in the corner suddenly killing you in one hit would just be insufferable, and Ranger getting to line up a full volley to your head while invisible is also a massive danger.

There shouldn't be a complete invisibility in the game to begin with. No one has fun with it except those using it. But that's a discussion for another topic.

[Rikuto01]

Arming sword or nothing. Falchion is a trap. Youll either miss or hit arms for reduced damage most of the time if they are actively evading and its less dps even if youre hitting.

Arming sword is harder to dodge and more forgiving on mistakes.

Now, to be frank your PDR is too low to matter against a landmine rogue. Anything below 40% is basically ignored for the first few seconds of the fight so he is doing more than you by default. Crank it above 55 to 60% and youll see a difference.

If you cant reach that, dont expect sword and shield to win. Focus on something like a slayer build instead with an emphasis on action speed, damage and HP. Arming sword and castillon dagger with dual wield, slayer, sword mastery. Combo attack if you wanna go all in, but weapon mastery for a bow to stay relevant in more matchups.

[Sarokan]

Originally posted by Kligan:

I was doing ice abyss HR runs as a fighter. And my last couple PvP encounters left me genuinely baffled.

Allow me to elaborate.

I was trying a spear build, with the focus on action speed, dex and hp. Recurve bow as a secondary. I call it "ranger cosplay" build. Had about 34% PDR, 16% AS and around 148 HP. Worked great in pve, did a series of successful runs. Then I encountered an unfriendly rogue. I retreated to the next module and set up ambush in a dark corner that I prepared beforehand. The rogue walker right into it. While he pulled out a torch, I started swinging. Hit him with full 3 strikes combo. In the meantime, the rogue took out his daggers, shanked me 4 times and I'm dead.
I watched back the replay, and I took about 60% of his health.
Ok.. well. That is annoying, but whatever. We go again.

Back at my stash I rebuilt my kit. This time it was medium armour with focus on hp, str and action speed. Epic viking sword with additional weapon damage and phys damage bonus, heater shield also with additional weapon damage. In total it was about 37% PDR without a shield out, 149 HP, 12% AS and 98% MS. Shield mastery and counter attack.
I went on, again, all good and dandy in pve, clearing fast and easy. Then I met a bard that immediately started shooting me with his bow. I kited him around the corner. He ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up and got too close. I popped sprint and second wind and begin hitting him. He tried to run but my swings were already connecting with his back. He turned around and begin trading damage in melee with me. I hit him 5 times consecutively, and then died.
Watching back the replay.. I took a THIRD of his health! He had 36% PDR with his buckler out, and 151 hp. And he straight up out traded me in damage with a massive margine!

Where is my damage in PvP? Why is it as if I'm swinging with a pool noodle?
And yes, I'm aware of the limb damage, so I try to aim for the head or the center of mass.
Can someone explain to me, what is the punchline of this joke that is my damage on a fighter?

Interesting article! Thanks for that. As a longsword fighter, I can't complain about a lack of damage, whether with normal strikes or ripost attacks. The nice thing about the fighter are his two very good ultimates, sprint and second wind. Together with the high PDR (55-60+ %), this often leads to success if you master spacing. It gets terrible with players who use magic and are also masters of hit and run tactics. You have to reach into your trick box more often.

I would say that you should stick with the falchion, longsword, arming sword or halberd, regardless of whether you use a bow or an crossbow. And PDR should be 55% and higher.

[Aldain]

Originally posted by Rikuto01:

Now, to be frank your PDR is too low to matter against a landmine rogue. Anything below 40% is basically ignored for the first few seconds of the fight so he is doing more than you by default. Crank it above 55 to 60% and youll see a difference.

Am I the only one who feels that PDR's stat curve is a bit strange?

It goes from basically nothing to "HOLY CRAP" levels in an instant, and while I get this is to dissuade something like a PDR Barb from being a nightmare, wouldn't it be better to balance from the other end with the armor's stats rather than making the curve only reward aggressive focus on PDR?

Maybe I'm just crazy but I feel like the PDR curve is just another factor pushing the move speed meta since it only matters if you can get to a certain threshold and even then it usually comes with being deathly allergic to magic...which classes that have magic damage are already faster simply by virtue of not caring about armor weight since the PDR they get out of it is worthless anyway.

Overall the stat balancing of DaD just feels way too caught up in extremes and hyperscaling at times to me.

[Sarokan]

Originally posted by Aldain:

Originally posted by Rikuto01:

Now, to be frank your PDR is too low to matter against a landmine rogue. Anything below 40% is basically ignored for the first few seconds of the fight so he is doing more than you by default. Crank it above 55 to 60% and youll see a difference.

Am I the only one who feels that PDR's stat curve is a bit strange?

It goes from basically nothing to "HOLY CRAP" levels in an instant, and while I get this is to dissuade something like a PDR Barb from being a nightmare, wouldn't it be better to balance from the other end with the armor's stats rather than making the curve only reward aggressive focus on PDR?

Maybe I'm just crazy but I feel like the PDR curve is just another factor pushing the move speed meta since it only matters if you can get to a certain threshold and even then it usually comes with being deathly allergic to magic...which classes that have magic damage are already faster simply by virtue of not caring about armor weight since the PDR they get out of it is worthless anyway.

Overall the stat balancing of DaD just feels way too caught up in extremes and hyperscaling at times to me.

I would agree with that. Either you build up your PDR completely or go for movement speed and always try to dodge. PDR makes sense above all if it is well over 50%, better 60-70%.

[Rikuto01]

PDR curve itself feels odd because outside of fighter, other melee classes have skills that ignore large portions of PDR. Light armor exists for stats, medium has no real place outside of a few mutant builds as a result.

You need enough PDR to reach above the armor penetration curve from skills or just embrace movement instead.

Helmets are valid for headshot reduction though, always

[Kligan]

Originally posted by Rikuto01:

Now, to be frank your PDR is too low to matter against a landmine rogue. Anything below 40% is basically ignored for the first few seconds of the fight so he is doing more than you by default. Crank it above 55 to 60% and youll see a difference.

I was trying to experiment with different stuff. Generally I prefer to have decent movement speed rather than full plate.
It's just I don't understand why the hell my damage is so abysmally low that I can't compete with anything in melee. Even after I get the jump on them first.
Yeah, in both cases it wasn't a "meta" weapon, but you can't deny that the way it performed is just mind blowingly terrible, and sure as shít doesn't feel like fighter is "master of all arms" as advertised.

[Sarokan]

Originally posted by Kligan:

Originally posted by Rikuto01:

A
Now, to be frank your PDR is too low to matter against a landmine rogue. Anything below 40% is basically ignored for the first few seconds of the fight so he is doing more than you by default. Crank it above 55 to 60% and youll see a difference.

I was trying to experiment with different stuff. Generally I prefer to have decent movement speed rather than full plate.
It's just I don't understand why the hell my damage is so abysmally low that I can't compete with anything in melee. Even after I get the jump on them first.
Yeah, in both cases it wasn't a "meta" weapon, but you can't deny that the way it performed is just mind blowingly terrible, and sure as shít doesn't feel like fighter is "master of all arms" as advertised.

In my opinion, a class, such as the fighter, which is potentially focused primarily on survival and long fights, should not only be considered on the basis of its damage output. Its chances of survival are also important. You have to look at the overall concept of you current char.

Unfortunately, apart from the Slayer build, a fighter always needs a full suit of armor with a high PDR. Otherwise, you're at the mercy of surprise attacks from rouges or one-shot physical attacks from other classes if you can't react quickly enough.

It may not be fun to bundle high PDR alongside other attributes, but it often leads to success from my experience. The ability of other non-magical classes to overcome very high PDR is limited.

[Kwaq]

Daggers are bs in my opinion. By the time you swing your sword the rogue or whatever already stabbed you 3 times. Doesnt matter how much armour you have the dagger will out dps you.