PvPvE games rarely work

[Macamar]

sometimes its the devs fault, sometimes its the games fault, but usually its a certain group of players fault. You always end up with a minority of no life PvP players who ruin the experience for the majority of players which stops them from wanting to continue to play.

Then the no lifers start to cry and whine online when the devs decrease PvP elements because the devs want to actually let people enjoy their game. But by that point the game has usually been infected by the no lifers toxicity so the game is ruined for anyone but the people with 200+ hours.

So what i think the best solution would be is to add limited PvE only dungeons for new players to grind and learn to play the game before they begin doing higher level PvPvE dungeons which gives better rewards, this way they dont immediately have to deal with no lifers.

[Oku]

"PvPvE games rarely work" you say to a game that is the #25 most played game on the entire Steam platform despite the majority of its players not playing via the Steam client.

This game has been around as a PvPvE experience for years at this point, and is popular specifically because of the approach it takes to that experience. Your "rarely works" claim doesn't apply here because this is one of times it DOES work.

[Aldain]

Pretty much yeah, they always wind up devolving into a mediocre PvP game because people always assume "PvP is the focus" and ignores the PvE as mere window dressing.

I've even seen people say "There's PvP quests, so obviously this is primarily a PvP game" while ignoring the fact that a solid chunk of all of the current quests are not tied to player kills.

Time will tell how Ironmace goes about it, perhaps the arena idea they have mentioned a few times will siphon off some of the problem down the road.

[Oku]

Publicado originalmente por Aldain:

Pretty much yeah, they always wind up devolving into a mediocre PvP game because people always assume "PvP is the focus" and ignores the PvE as mere window dressing.

I've even seen people say "There's PvP quests, so obviously this is primarily a PvP game" while ignoring the fact that a solid chunk of all of the current quests are not tied to player kills.

Time will tell how Ironmace goes about it, perhaps the arena idea they have mentioned a few times will siphon off some of the problem down the road.

Time has told already. The game has been around for a long time now and is still incredibly popular despite not catering specifically to the tastes you claim are the only way for the game to be popular lmao

[Cakner]

I think its because of you carebear PvE only types that ruin the game. There is a core playerbase having fun but then suddenly a bunch of people who seemingly dont like the game all show up and demand it changes for them. Will these players stay if the game changes for them, Will the old players leave with these changes? Find out next time on Dark and Darker.

[Aldain]

Publicado originalmente por Cakner:

I think its because of you carebear PvE only types that ruin the game. There is a core playerbase having fun but then suddenly a bunch of people who seemingly dont like the game all show up and demand it changes for them. Will these players stay if the game changes for them, Will the old players leave with these changes? Find out next time on Dark and Darker.

The "carebears" are almost always the first ones to leave, and then in my experience the low skill end of PvP players complain about not having timmies to stomp for their egos and then they leave to find a newer game to do just that in.

A true PvPvE game needs both elements to be in harmony and equally as important, if one or the other becomes irrelevant then the identity of the game is compromised, and that includes the PvE side of things.

[Cakner]

Publicado originalmente por Deathtroth:

...I Literally Don't PvP Unless Someone Attacks Me...

I struggle to understand this attitude in games like this. Do you truly never attack first, or just 99 to 1 thats your default?
I love talking to people in the dungeon because of how many of them have this attitude, get them to drop their guard then take their stuff. I might be distracting you so the rogue can sneak behind you.

[Oku]

Publicado originalmente por Aldain:

Publicado originalmente por Cakner:

I think its because of you carebear PvE only types that ruin the game. There is a core playerbase having fun but then suddenly a bunch of people who seemingly dont like the game all show up and demand it changes for them. Will these players stay if the game changes for them, Will the old players leave with these changes? Find out next time on Dark and Darker.

The "carebears" are almost always the first ones to leave, and then in my experience the low skill end of PvP players complain about not having timmies to stomp for their egos and then they leave to find a newer game to do just that in.

A true PvPvE game needs both elements to be in harmony and equally as important, if one or the other becomes irrelevant then the identity of the game is compromised, and that includes the PvE side of things.

I think what really irks me the most is just the pure smugness that y'all come in to this argument with.

You barge in to a game that has been doing a PvP-centric thing for a long time, is incredibly popular and continues to grow in popularity, you drop the "THIS GAME MUST HAVE PVE OR IT WILL DIE" like usual, and then proceed to declare things that "will happen to the game" that have not happened at any point during its history, and never happen to any of the games like this that manage to obtain staying power.

People like you have been saying EVE Online will "die" if it doesnt add a PvE server for like, 20 years now. Dark & Darker's entire existence has had people go "IF YOU DON'T ADD A PVE MODE THIS GAME IS DOOMED" and it only continues to grow in popularity. RUST has had people insisting that official PvE Co-Op servers are the only way to "save" the game for years now despite it not needing to be saved.

At what point do you stop and just go "PvP centric games are clearly popular but they're not for me, and that's fine" instead of continuing to try to insist, mostly just to yourself, that you know what's best for games that don't actually need your advice to be successful?

[Macamar]

I feel like many people here didnt even read the post and just got consumed by a blind rage as soon as they saw the title. But something a large amount of PvP no lifers forget is this game is PvPvE, PvP is only supposed to be one part of the game not the whole thing.

[Oku]

Publicado originalmente por Macamar:

I feel like many people here didnt even read the post and just got consumed by a blind rage as soon as they saw the title. But something a large amount of PvP no lifers forget is this game is PvPvE, PvP is only supposed to be one part of the game not the whole thing.

No we read your post, or at least I did, and I understood completely what you're trying to say.

The issue is that the "PvP No lifers" are the reason this game is popular. No matter what you think, no matter what you tell yourself, there are a HUGE number of players who like PvP-centric experiences, and they came to this game because of that experience.

You can refuse to engage directly in combat with other players, but no matter what you do, the adversarial relationship between you and other players exists. Every mob you kill, loot piece you grab, door you open and don't shut behind you, and escape you take impacts the decision making and ability to proceed of every other player, and the same happens to you. The entire game is focused around that adversarial relationship in the same way that EVE Online does. Yes, you can just go farm flowers and kill goblins all day, but the threat of another player being able to attack you at any time for any reason is omnipresent, whether you like it or not, and that dynamic is why this game, and games like it, are as popular as they are.

And as I said before, "PvPvE games rarely work" doesn't apply here. This is one of the times it does work, and has been working, and will continue to work without sidelining PvP to cater to people who want to pick flowers all day.

[Gaijin718]

no life neckbeards kill every game

[Cakner]

Publicado originalmente por Aldain:

A true PvPvE game needs both elements to be in harmony and equally as important, if one or the other becomes irrelevant then the identity of the game is compromised, and that includes the PvE side of things.

Well worded.

Publicado originalmente por Gaijin718:

no life neckbeards kill every game

No body likes losing.

[Oku]

Publicado originalmente por Gaijin718:

no life neckbeards kill every game

Here y'all go again.

This game is very much not being killed, at all, and yet you keep saying this ♥♥♥♥ despite the very game you're saying it in proving irrefutably that you're wrong lmao

You being filtered out of a competitive game does not mean it's dying lol

[DiVega9]

Im a new player. Always try n get solo goblin caves. 5 ppl on server and been pvpd near every time. Perhaps some sort of immunity until certain lvl reached. I dont want to ruin game for long term players. Thoughts?

[Oku]

Publicado originalmente por DiVega9:

Im a new player. Always try n get solo goblin caves. 5 ppl on server and been pvpd near every time. Perhaps some sort of immunity until certain lvl reached. I dont want to ruin game for long term players. Thoughts?

Populating the lobby with newbies who get immunity to player damage is NOT the way to go about things.

The game doesn't need to change, you need to change your perspective. This is an Extraction game. Your early hours are going to be rough, you're probably not going to make it out with anything for a while, but what you will be doing is leveling up, learning how the game works in terms of core mechanics, learning the layout of each map, learning where the escapes are, learning how to develop situational awareness for this game, and then after a while you'll be able to use that knowledge to get out with gear and loot and establish yourself. You shouldn't be worrying about getting gear to actually use until you know the maps and how to get out with more consistently, once you have that down, that's when you start going in geared and risking more to get rewarded with more.

Don't think of your deaths early on as a failure, think of them as another set of circumstances you can learn from. That's part of the appeal these games have to most people - go in expecting to lose and have fun exploring and learning where things are. Being a loot goblin at the start is how most people play.

[Kankaku]

Publicado originalmente por Oku:

"PvPvE games rarely work" you say to a game that is the #25 most played game on the entire Steam platform despite the majority of its players not playing via the Steam client.

This game has been around as a PvPvE experience for years at this point, and is popular specifically because of the approach it takes to that experience. Your "rarely works" claim doesn't apply here because this is one of times it DOES work.

Worked so well they had 4k players on blacksmith prior to steam release.