Great balance!

[David Fifield]

https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkAndDarker/comments/zsilzu/clerics_judgement_is_soo_good/

Quite awesome that cleric has an auto target spell that can kill 3 of the classes in 1 hit or guarantee any hit after that will kill. Can even guarantee the next headshot will kill a barb. If you don't have invis good luck turning around and outrunning it before it can finish casting. Once in range GG. The fact that you can insta nuke 3 classes out of the lobby if they approach and take 50% of the melee classes HP on approach is insane. This game has an insanely stupid flat stat gear problem.

[Powerful Holy God]

you realize all of these video's are of people in grey's or starting gear against people in 3000 gold purples? rangers and mages can do the same thing but from all the way across the map

ive used judgement and its so buggy, most of the time it wont even activate untill the barb is already about to 1 shot you, also people can suddenly run out of range of it and put it on CD, also its mediocre without insane magic+ gear

[BigJ]

You require:
-12 extra will to trach 98 damage
- Can't 1 shot fighters or barbs
- Even 15% magic res negates it
- It's a 4.5m spell
- Both ranger and wizard can stack similarly and 1 shot you from further away.

Now for the stats, attack is 35 damage base...

[David Fifield]

Originally posted by BigJ:

You require:
-12 extra will to trach 98 damage
- Can't 1 shot fighters or barbs
- Even 15% magic res negates it
- It's a 4.5m spell
- Both ranger and wizard can stack similarly and 1 shot you from further away.

Now for the stats, attack is 35 damage base...

This is a game where gear is the biggest factor and then class match ups. 4.5 meters is huge when you realize the portal rooms all end in a frenzy. If they get close enough to cast it you literally can't outrun it because it's so fast. The fact that it's autocast is insane. It literally does 50-100% of most players hp pool. It's way easier to stack physical resist and although wizaed is OP if geared at least they need to aim lmao.

[David Fifield]

Originally posted by Powerful Holy God:

you realize all of these video's are of people in grey's or starting gear against people in 3000 gold purples? rangers and mages can do the same thing but from all the way across the map

ive used judgement and its so buggy, most of the time it wont even activate untill the barb is already about to 1 shot you, also people can suddenly run out of range of it and put it on CD, also its mediocre without insane magic+ gear

Bro almost no one is running high magic resist because then you just get destroyed by all the physical dmg classes and its way harder to find good gear with magic resist. Also magic resist does way less than physical resist. A fighter can run huge physical dmg resist and literally take 10+ attacks from a barbarian,rogue and ranger. They can block the armor pen skills with shield. Even people running big magic resist aren't tanking 5 fireballs.

You also fail to realize it's quite hard to avoid judgement when you have the wizard,barb and cleric combo as you try to outrun a barb with 3 mspeed buffs stacked....all he has to do is land a single throwing axe and every class but fighter is deas as you get a 60% mspees debuff. All this time the cleric just walls forward and can easily cast judgement if you try to help your team mate vs the barb.

I feel like people also discount the fact the the majority of the map is tight cramped spaces.

[BigJ]

Originally posted by Jake:

Originally posted by BigJ:

You require:
-12 extra will to trach 98 damage
- Can't 1 shot fighters or barbs
- Even 15% magic res negates it
- It's a 4.5m spell
- Both ranger and wizard can stack similarly and 1 shot you from further away.

Now for the stats, attack is 35 damage base...

This is a game where gear is the biggest factor and then class match ups. 4.5 meters is huge when you realize the portal rooms all end in a frenzy. If they get close enough to cast it you literally can't outrun it because it's so fast. The fact that it's autocast is insane. It literally does 50-100% of most players hp pool. It's way easier to stack physical resist and although wizaed is OP if geared at least they need to aim lmao.

It-s not an autocast, you must stand still and hold e, which is more than enough time for a barb to 1 shot you to the face. You can-t outrun it because the moment htey are in they get hit...should use judgement before complaining about it.

Again it only deals that damage with no magic res and stacking will hard. It-s 35 damage... Wizard can also cast from any distance safely, as a cleric you risk a barb dealing 184 damage if they are stacking strenght on a felling axe.

[BigJ]

Originally posted by Jake:

Originally posted by Powerful Holy God:

you realize all of these video's are of people in grey's or starting gear against people in 3000 gold purples? rangers and mages can do the same thing but from all the way across the map

ive used judgement and its so buggy, most of the time it wont even activate untill the barb is already about to 1 shot you, also people can suddenly run out of range of it and put it on CD, also its mediocre without insane magic+ gear

Bro almost no one is running high magic resist because then you just get destroyed by all the physical dmg classes and its way harder to find good gear with magic resist. Also magic resist does way less than physical resist. A fighter can run huge physical dmg resist and literally take 10+ attacks from a barbarian,rogue and ranger. They can block the armor pen skills with shield. Even people running big magic resist aren't tanking 5 fireballs.

You also fail to realize it's quite hard to avoid judgement when you have the wizard,barb and cleric combo as you try to outrun a barb with 3 mspeed buffs stacked....all he has to do is land a single throwing axe and every class but fighter is deas as you get a 60% mspees debuff. All this time the cleric just walls forward and can easily cast judgement if you try to help your team mate vs the barb.

I feel like people also discount the fact the the majority of the map is tight cramped spaces.

This is just false, most people in high roller were rolling 10-20% magic res minimun after the trauma that was the December wizards, because even if you stack 60% physical res... barbarian is still dealing 83 damage to you. Magic res negates wizards completely, it absolutely does something, unless you are a barb with the perk. A fighter with 95% res, the maximun achived currently takes barely any damage to melee true...but gets 1 shot by magic, welcome to build making, stacking too hard towards something leaves gaps and weaknesses.

If the cleric is at 4.5m of anyone, he is in barb 1 shot range, which gives you an easy chance to remove their healer and buffer from the equation, if barb has debuffed you and they aren't debuffed, you are already loosing the neutral. In tight cramped spaces cleric has a hard time casting judgement as he must stand still for 0.5ms before casting it, which may not be possible to get vision if barb is on the front and you match his footwork.

[playfulrainbow]

The fact that people are actually defending this broken spell is insanity. Clerics, Preists, etc. are suppose to have weak melee and magic damage in games because they make up for it in the utility they provide in healing. Even if Clerics are 2-3 hitting people, they are still way overpowered. Healing classes should NEVER be able to output the same or higher damage than DPS characters. Ideally, even if a Cleric is fully geared their DPS shouldn't be that noticeable. If they update the Cleric like this and Clerics become only used in group parties then that's fine too. Healing classes shouldn't be able to go on par against a DPS class that is the same skill as them, otherwise it's pointless to play a DPS class when you can just play Cleric and heal multiple times. I think they need to nerf judgement heavily. What they could do is make Cleric's damage weak, but give him access to debuffs and/or DOT damage.

[BigJ]

Originally posted by inlecebra:

The fact that people are actually defending this broken spell is insanity. Clerics, Preists, etc. are suppose to have weak melee and magic damage in games because they make up for it in the utility they provide in healing. Even if Clerics are 2-3 hitting people, they are still way overpowered. Healing classes should NEVER be able to output the same or higher damage than DPS characters. Ideally, even if a Cleric is fully geared their DPS shouldn't be that noticeable. If they update the Cleric like this and Clerics become only used in group parties then that's fine too. Healing classes shouldn't be able to go on par against a DPS class that is the same skill as them, otherwise it's pointless to play a DPS class when you can just play Cleric and heal multiple times. I think they need to nerf judgement heavily. What they could do is make Cleric's damage weak, but give him access to debuffs and/or DOT damage.

This is just a wrong statement:
- As a cleric you got barbarian move speed, making combat harder on you, your weapons swing slower than most 1 handers and only the quarterstaff is faster.
- You have 90 hp, 10 less hp than fighter and 40hp less than barb
- The only way cleric stands toe to toe with the other 2 melee classes is buffing themselves fully, bless, strike and prot, which is accurate to 3.5e cleric to an extend.
- If you cast judgement to engage, whoever can simply hit you in the head and start the dps race well already, since you are fully static during it.
- As a cleric your armor options are lower than fighter due to armet, you also do NOT want to go full armor because it makes the move speed options worse.
- Barb can still 1 shot you at your maximun physical resistance.
- Judgement is again 35 damage...every 30 seconds, with a focus of 0.5 ms of standing still before the spell and 2 seconds of cast time. In that time a ranger can finish a quickshot volley, a mage can cast a fireball and a half (both while still moving) and a barbarian can hit you twice for 184x2 damage with the felling axe.

It is clear you were outskilled by a cleric in this case and couldn't capitalize on their weakness.

[Aldain]

Originally posted by BigJ:

- You have 90 hp, 20 less hp than fighter

10 less than Fighter, not 20 just for the record.

[BigJ]

There, edited for more correction, thanks.

[Aldain]

Originally posted by BigJ:

Originally posted by Aldain:

10 less than Fighter, not 20 just for the record.

Starting fighter gear puts you at 110 because of the +2 total strenght bonus from the boots and the armor.

Fighter starter gear is a Padded Tunic and Cloth Pants though, they don't start with boots or gloves at all.

Yes, you can get a point of Strength from a junk tier pair of Plate Boots and there's Riveted Gloves and Heavy Leather Leggings that also give 1 Strength, but Fighter starts with none of that.

[BigJ]

Originally posted by Aldain:

Originally posted by BigJ:

Starting fighter gear puts you at 110 because of the +2 total strenght bonus from the boots and the armor.

Fighter starter gear is a Padded Tunic and Cloth Pants though, they don't start with boots or gloves at all.

Yes, you can get a point of Strength from a junk tier pair of Plate Boots and there's Riveted Gloves and Heavy Leather Leggings that also give 1 Strength, but Fighter starts with none of that.

I was remembering it from back on October when they started with the heavy pants and the boots, my bad.

[Aldain]

Originally posted by BigJ:

Originally posted by Aldain:

Fighter starter gear is a Padded Tunic and Cloth Pants though, they don't start with boots or gloves at all.

Yes, you can get a point of Strength from a junk tier pair of Plate Boots and there's Riveted Gloves and Heavy Leather Leggings that also give 1 Strength, but Fighter starts with none of that.

I was remembering it from back on October when they started with the heavy pants and the boots, my bad.

No problem, I actually didn't know they used to start with that.

[playfulrainbow]

Originally posted by BigJ:

Originally posted by inlecebra:

The fact that people are actually defending this broken spell is insanity. Clerics, Preists, etc. are suppose to have weak melee and magic damage in games because they make up for it in the utility they provide in healing. Even if Clerics are 2-3 hitting people, they are still way overpowered. Healing classes should NEVER be able to output the same or higher damage than DPS characters. Ideally, even if a Cleric is fully geared their DPS shouldn't be that noticeable. If they update the Cleric like this and Clerics become only used in group parties then that's fine too. Healing classes shouldn't be able to go on par against a DPS class that is the same skill as them, otherwise it's pointless to play a DPS class when you can just play Cleric and heal multiple times. I think they need to nerf judgement heavily. What they could do is make Cleric's damage weak, but give him access to debuffs and/or DOT damage.

This is just a wrong statement:
- As a cleric you got barbarian move speed, making combat harder on you, your weapons swing slower than most 1 handers and only the quarterstaff is faster.
- You have 90 hp, 10 less hp than fighter and 40hp less than barb
- The only way cleric stands toe to toe with the other 2 melee classes is buffing themselves fully, bless, strike and prot, which is accurate to 3.5e cleric to an extend.
- If you cast judgement to engage, whoever can simply hit you in the head and start the dps race well already, since you are fully static during it.
- As a cleric your armor options are lower than fighter due to armet, you also do NOT want to go full armor because it makes the move speed options worse.
- Barb can still 1 shot you at your maximun physical resistance.
- Judgement is again 35 damage...every 30 seconds, with a focus of 0.5 ms of standing still before the spell and 2 seconds of cast time. In that time a ranger can finish a quickshot volley, a mage can cast a fireball and a half (both while still moving) and a barbarian can hit you twice for 184x2 damage with the felling axe.

It is clear you were outskilled by a cleric in this case and couldn't capitalize on their weakness.

35 base, with minimal stat gear you can easily 2 shot most characters in the game and 3 shot the rest (this is completely dependent on if enemies are full health, most of the time you would be able to 2 shot anyone). Your arguement is that barbarian the one character geared up can one shot you and everyone else? Cleric shouldn't be 2-3 shotting anyone as a healer. Talk about barbarian's negative traits and you actually find Cleric is by far better in the long run for solo, which is completely messed up.

I think it's hilarious you're talking about Judgement like some COD quickscoping type of skill as if it's some highly based skill mechanic. Bro you clicked and casted for half a sec then swung your weapon.

[David Fifield]

Originally posted by BigJ:

Originally posted by inlecebra:

The fact that people are actually defending this broken spell is insanity. Clerics, Preists, etc. are suppose to have weak melee and magic damage in games because they make up for it in the utility they provide in healing. Even if Clerics are 2-3 hitting people, they are still way overpowered. Healing classes should NEVER be able to output the same or higher damage than DPS characters. Ideally, even if a Cleric is fully geared their DPS shouldn't be that noticeable. If they update the Cleric like this and Clerics become only used in group parties then that's fine too. Healing classes shouldn't be able to go on par against a DPS class that is the same skill as them, otherwise it's pointless to play a DPS class when you can just play Cleric and heal multiple times. I think they need to nerf judgement heavily. What they could do is make Cleric's damage weak, but give him access to debuffs and/or DOT damage.

This is just a wrong statement:
- As a cleric you got barbarian move speed, making combat harder on you, your weapons swing slower than most 1 handers and only the quarterstaff is faster.
- You have 90 hp, 10 less hp than fighter and 40hp less than barb
- The only way cleric stands toe to toe with the other 2 melee classes is buffing themselves fully, bless, strike and prot, which is accurate to 3.5e cleric to an extend.
- If you cast judgement to engage, whoever can simply hit you in the head and start the dps race well already, since you are fully static during it.
- As a cleric your armor options are lower than fighter due to armet, you also do NOT want to go full armor because it makes the move speed options worse.
- Barb can still 1 shot you at your maximun physical resistance.
- Judgement is again 35 damage...every 30 seconds, with a focus of 0.5 ms of standing still before the spell and 2 seconds of cast time. In that time a ranger can finish a quickshot volley, a mage can cast a fireball and a half (both while still moving) and a barbarian can hit you twice for 184x2 damage with the felling axe.

It is clear you were outskilled by a cleric in this case and couldn't capitalize on their weakness.

There is no way it has a 2s cast tiime...did you even watch the video? Half the kills are on barbs that literally can't close the faster than the cleric can cast judgement and start a morningstar swing to 2 shot them. The other half are the cleric literally pressing a button to 1 shot wizard,rogue and ranger. It's a class that can buff and heal making steam roll comps...while also having the potential to 2 shot every class.