Are Rogues that bad, or is it mostly daggers being bad?

[Deceptive Pastry]

Don't get me wrong, I think the class could use some small buffs as it's still likely the weakest class atm. But I find I have a MUCH better time going in with a grey rapier or even a short sword. Rapiers are almost as fast as daggers for stacking poison, have good range. and do about as much damage. I can kill PvE mobs faster as I don't have to play as safe around their attacks and in PvP I can dance around attacks and poke more easily as I don't have to get as close. Daggers could really use some more attack speed or a hair more damage as their DPS isn't good enough to balance their terrible range. There's also seemingly no reason to dual wield daggers? Unless you're running a Fighter with the perk all you're doing is reducing your movement speed for the ability to alter between stabs and slashes.

[SimplyGnome]

Origineel geplaatst door Deceptive Pastry:

Don't get me wrong, I think the class could use some small buffs as it's still likely the weakest class atm. But I find I have a MUCH better time going in with a grey rapier or even a short sword. Rapiers are almost as fast as daggers for stacking poison, have good range. and do decent damage. I can kill PvE mobs faster and in PvP I can dance around attacks and poke more easily as I don't have to get as close. Daggers could really use some more attack speed or a hair more damage as their DPS isn't good enough to balance their terrible range. There's also seemingly no reason to dual wield daggers? Unless you're running a Fighter with the perk all you're doing is reducing your movement speed for the ability to alter between stabs and slashes.

Have you played much with chaining combos during dual weilding? It ups your damage per combo significantly. You can use 2 swings on your initial combo, into the 3 swings on your secondary.

Also, daggers can swing much faster than rapiers, and when youre geared up and only need 2-3 hits to drop people, those dagger combos are wildly effective.

They suck donkey sausage while gearing up or with low gear though.

[UncleIstvan]

I think the main issue that rogue lacks plain +X damage to daggers perk, like Barbarian has with axes. Changing +5% damage perk to 5 plain damage would go a long way.
Dual wield is under-baked mechanic all around, it needs its own moveset, or some bonuses for alternating main and offhand strikes at the very least.

[TeaLeaf]

Rouges are not bad at all, they excel at being quite and avoiding fights however. Their means of attack is assassination, high DPS especially with a dagger that isn't grey. I killed a fully geared fighter in plate during the last test in the goblin cave. He thought he was alone by the exit stairs and had a cross bow out poping off at the shaman. I waited for the fire then downed him with head shots before he could change weapons. The rouge however is very difficult in head on fights, with my best success being hit and run tactics. Escaping on a rogue is very good, you can run through clusters of mobs and drop agro by going into stealth. Its often not wise to commit too much to a chase of a rogue. For all the issues with a head on fight the rogue was excellent about forcing people to fight on their terms, engaging when they want and disengaging as well.

[Grimmsch]

The starting gear is bad. It is a completely different game with better gear and more perks.

Castillon would be a better starting weapon imho - it has a nice wide sweep.

I would change some abilities to equipment (Caltrops, Smoke bomb).

[Deceptive Pastry]

Origineel geplaatst door SimplyGnome:

Have you played much with chaining combos during dual weilding? It ups your damage per combo significantly. You can use 2 swings on your initial combo, into the 3 swings on your secondary.

But does it actually do more total damage than pausing between 2 and 3? Because I rarely find that doing a full 5 swing combo is the best option in PvP aside from when you first get the jump on them. When you're actually in the fight 1v1ing I have best results getting 1-2 stabs then backing off to dodge between their attacks or the reduced movespeed while attacking gets me hit. Took out two barbs in a row that way because I got in and out before they could hit me.

[TeaLeaf]

Origineel geplaatst door Grimmsch:

The starting gear is bad. It is a completely different game with better gear and more perks.

Castillon would be a better starting weapon imho - it has a nice wide sweep.

I would change some abilities to equipment (Caltrops, Smoke bomb).

Honestly yeah, the rogue has the worst starting kit. Those would likely serve better as rogue exclusive tools given the very high need for hide and the one damage enhancement skill.

[Deceptive Pastry]

Origineel geplaatst door Grimmsch:

I would change some abilities to equipment (Caltrops, Smoke bomb).

That's a really good idea.

[ssjTorres]

I think people don't realize a fresh rogue has to outplay (which is a good thing) any other melee character, they cannot stand and fight. They're fast and have invis for a reason. They choose when to fight in a lot of situations unless caught out, and a geared rogue can easily kill the unsuspecting players, especially if they're engaged with mobs or players. Dagger is for going all in and I'm certain if you get the jump on someone hit all 3 stabs to the head + rupture, you can either fully commit and kill or use your move speed to gain distance for use throwing knives/potions/invis and waiting for bleed CD. Pick up a rapier now you can duel a lot better. Pick up some good gear and you get closer to one shotting out of invis. You can even train mob aggro onto someone else by going invis, so much potential for plays and escapes. Not to mention lockpicking, fast interaction speed, DoT...

Dagger excels at what its good at and sucks at what it sucks at. Don't expect to stand a fight with it because of the range, That's what rapier is for on Rogue. Daggers you do a lot of damage in a few swings and proc a lot of poison. The dual wield combo can be devastating with backstabs to anyone who doesn't turn around fast enough. Also daggers can be extremely fast in pve against certain enemies.

Also Rogue's potential to escape is so high as he can open portals the fastest, plus is sneaky enough to survive long enough to get to a portal anyways even solo. So I don't know why everyone thinks rogue is so weak with all these tools

Basically what I'm trying to say, is I don't think Rogue is bad OR daggers. I think players are bad and pick the Rogue class and try to fight like a Fighter rather than being Rogue.

(also speaking from solo rogue perspective)

[iiell]

I think the Rogue is in a bad spot right now. What is funny is their base weapon does the same damage as their fist.

They do not shine at anything except picking pockets, opening locks and disarming traps. All 3 require using perk slots.

Also, Poison Weapon is way underwhelming. I think this should apply a movement speed debuff on top of the DoT. That would give them some utility to create distance from warriors and barbs. They should also be able to use smaller bows.

[ssjTorres]

Origineel geplaatst door Deceptive Pastry:

Origineel geplaatst door SimplyGnome:

Have you played much with chaining combos during dual weilding? It ups your damage per combo significantly. You can use 2 swings on your initial combo, into the 3 swings on your secondary.

But does it actually do more total damage than pausing between 2 and 3? Because I rarely find that doing a full 5 swing combo is the best option in PvP aside from when you first get the jump on them. When you're actually in the fight 1v1ing I have best results getting 1-2 stabs then backing off to dodge between their attacks or the reduced movespeed while attacking gets me hit. Took out two barbs in a row that way because I got in and out before they could hit me.

You don't have to hit every stab, could be used for timing and area denial, as they don't want to walk into your stab. Plus its extra useful when surprising someone who doesn't have a weapon out, can't immediately hurt you or move

[Deceptive Pastry]

Origineel geplaatst door psywav:

Daggers you do a lot of damage in a few swings and proc a lot of poison.

This is the point of the post though - they really don't. Which is the problem. You can stab and stab and stab, get a few headshots, they keep standing, turn around, hit you 1-2 times and dead. And the likelihood of getting more than 1-2 stabs to their head before they start spinning/ducking/jumping goes down even if you're got great aim. Now I'm basing this on gray - green tier daggers, maybe they scale harder at higher rarities and the problem is their quality scaling needs balanced. But even white-green daggers really don't do much more DPS, if any, than equivalent weapon types.

[Deceptive Pastry]

Origineel geplaatst door psywav:

could be used for timing and area denial, as they don't want to walk into your stab.

I just don't see that happening in practice. Why would any fighter, barb, or cleric care about taking an extra stab or two when they can just hit you. These classes will easily win outright trades with you.

[Harry]

The hit box on the daggers are just so horrible lmao. I think this class just sucks big time for noobs but is decent for better players. They basically need to adjust the two extremes. Because I've had games where I stab a barbarian with basic garments like 5 times and that's only half his HP. He uses speed buff and hits me once and I'm like almost dead. It also takes forever to get through mobs and gets shot down by skeleton archers like no tomorrow.

[lag]

Rogues are not to fight head-on. If you find it weak in head-on fight don't play it as its not figher class.

[dewi]

i think they should change up the starting kit and raise the damage of lower tier daggers a lil bit. the rogue is pretty underpowered when getting gear first starting out.