Does the wizard do too much? Discussion

[[EVB] Great Destino]

This is not a Wizard bashing thread... More of a discussion for those with proper experience in the game to talk and discuss.

Personally im a fighter main with all of the other classes levelled. Have 60 hours, having acheived and eventually lost legendary levels of gear, killed plenty of players and generally happy with the state of the game.

Does the Wizard do too much right now? I understand the team isnt focused on balance atm but i dont see why we cannot discuss it.

My opinion is yes, but not by much.

- They have the best ranged cabilities, having both the strongest single target and AoE nukes

- they have the best evasive capabilities, having the best invisibility skill and arguably the best movement speed skill

- they have an incredibly strong melee option, invis+ignite is insanely effective

The downsides are

- squishiest class (although not by much compared to ranger and rogue)

- highest skill gap, weaving spells isnt exactly easy, positioning and creativity are key so you dont get clapped.

Personally i think that in general they are ok, they just need a slight tune-down. Perhaps reduce the number of charges for each spell so they cant spam them so reliably in fights.

So what are your thoughts?

[Legendairy2]

Only thing I would currently like to see changed about wizard is the removal of the invis spell. Invis should be reserved for rogues or potions. Wizards should not be better rogues lol ignite -> haste -> invis is the most broken combo in the game

[[EVB] Great Destino]

Originally posted by Legendairy2:

Only thing I would currently like to see changed about wizard is the removal of the invis spell. Invis should be reserved for rogues or potions. Wizards should not be better rogues lol ignite -> haste -> invis is the most broken combo in the game

Either reducing the charges or making mage invis the same as a potion effect. Making it so you cant move while invisible.

[Legendairy2]

Originally posted by EVB Great Destino:

Originally posted by Legendairy2:

Only thing I would currently like to see changed about wizard is the removal of the invis spell. Invis should be reserved for rogues or potions. Wizards should not be better rogues lol ignite -> haste -> invis is the most broken combo in the game

Either reducing the charges or making mage invis the same as a potion effect. Making it so you cant move while invisible.

Making it so you cant move would be an option but I would rather just see it removed entirely. Just personal preference, dont think mages need an invis spell, they already do obscene dmg and have other utility spells

[limierr]

A wizzard trapped is easily to beat down but a wizzard who anticipate someone can be deadly as a rogue.

I think he is good choice in term of balance : good for slow player, good in a team,

[Drogash]

Originally posted by Legendairy2:

Only thing I would currently like to see changed about wizard is the removal of the invis spell. Invis should be reserved for rogues or potions. Wizards should not be better rogues lol ignite -> haste -> invis is the most broken combo in the game

Yeah i agree Wizards should be able to cloak. that what the rogue is for.

Wizard should get a Mana Shield or somthing to replace it

[[EVB] Great Destino]

Originally posted by limierr:

A wizzard trapped is easily to beat down but a wizzard who anticipate someone can be deadly as a rogue.

I think he is good choice in term of balance : good for slow player, good in a team,

Thing is, in terms of movement speed and actions per minute the wizard is the fastest. They usually precast 2-3 spells before every engagement. They have 2 very strong oppenings that go as follows:

1. Cast haste -> cast invis go behind enemy lines and nuke with the extremely lethal arcane missle (although fireball and chain lightning are also incredibly strong alternatives)

2. Caste haste -> cast ignite -> cast invis. Its a 2 stab kill for 80% of the players, 3 stab kill for geared armored players. Still absolutely lethal.

[=A=]

I agree. Wizard`s Invi or haste, should be nerfed. Is just too OP. As now, he can create to much deadly combos that no other class can. I'm surely gonna master him in the next OT

[[EVB] Great Destino]

Originally posted by Legendairy2:

Originally posted by EVB Great Destino:

Either reducing the charges or making mage invis the same as a potion effect. Making it so you cant move while invisible.

Making it so you cant move would be an option but I would rather just see it removed entirely. Just personal preference, dont think mages need an invis spell, they already do obscene dmg and have other utility spells

I wouldnt mind seeing it gone. But it must be at least reworked if its going to be part of the game, right now they have it too often and too reliably as well as synergizing too much with the rest of the kit (especially hast and ignite). I can understand people complaining about rogue because as it stands, they are arguably better rogues than rogues.

[Scooty]

Wizard's Don't Stop Casting When Hit By Players.

There's your problem. Fix that and boom, balanced.

[Midnight]

Depends what the player goal is tbh. Team composition a wizard is rarely able to be shifted into the composition for a 3 man. Cleric "needed". Ranger "needed" since corridor battles normally revolve into a sniping nightmare and whoever pushes that corridor first is gonna get pumped full of arrows. Requiring a team to head to alternative pathways or just play the long game. The third slot is normally where a wizard "could" fit, but is better reserved for a fighter or barbarian frontline who the cleric can buff for potential quick shifts in circumstances or storming a room.

Now, for boss fights? Again, wizard isn't good for them since they need to quite literally exit the room and sit down for about 20 seconds. Which a ranger could just be filling a boss with arrows with instead. That and most of their spells don't really affect mobs that well. "Fireball not burning mobs" and the requirement to standstill for magic missile can be deadly. That + the low hp, can make them potential 1 shot bait.

As for them having too many spells, i'ma need to disagree. You can mentally tick the amount of casts a wizard has as you fight one. Second they run out, they're scrabbling to flee normally or just praying they can out-melee you.

As for the haste + invis thing...Most people are deaf, cause it's very easy to hear them as they move.

Wizard only gets really strong, if they have abunch of magical damage gear and they get the 1 shot potential. But all classes get to that stage eventually tbh.

[jest]

Wizard is literally the best at everything. Fastest. Longest, most mobile invis. Highest melee damage by a factor of at least 2+ (scaling with magic damage). Ranged AOEs.

Ignite facestab oneshots any of the sub 100hp classes. Kills barbs in less than one second.

Ignite, haste, invis, fireball, arcane missiles, chain lightning.

All god-tier spells on their own. When comboed lets you solo 1v3 high rollers.

Rank 20 wizard.

[[EVB] Great Destino]

Originally posted by Aaravos:

Depends what the player goal is tbh. Team composition a wizard is rarely able to be shifted into the composition for a 3 man. Cleric "needed". Ranger "needed" since corridor battles normally revolve into a sniping nightmare and whoever pushes that corridor first is gonna get pumped full of arrows. Requiring a team to head to alternative pathways or just play the long game. The third slot is normally where a wizard "could" fit, but is better reserved for a fighter or barbarian frontline who the cleric can buff for potential quick shifts in circumstances or storming a room.

Now, for boss fights? Again, wizard isn't good for them since they need to quite literally exit the room and sit down for about 20 seconds. Which a ranger could just be filling a boss with arrows with instead. That and most of their spells don't really affect mobs that well. "Fireball not burning mobs" and the requirement to standstill for magic missile can be deadly. That + the low hp, can make them potential 1 shot bait.

As for them having too many spells, i'ma need to disagree. You can mentally tick the amount of casts a wizard has as you fight one. Second they run out, they're scrabbling to flee normally or just praying they can out-melee you.

As for the haste + invis thing...Most people are deaf, cause it's very easy to hear them as they move.

Wizard only gets really strong, if they have abunch of magical damage gear and they get the 1 shot potential. But all classes get to that stage eventually tbh.

Got to disagree with you on the 3 man comp. Cleric is hardly needed if you bring in proper healing. Why bring a class that can heal you for 30hp if you can bring one that does 50 damage per fireball in an Area. So if a Mage lands a singlefireball on 2 people, you need 4 holy lights (making him almost out of holy light charges) for you to restore 1 spell's worth of damage (even if you hit just 1 person its 2 spells for 1). Just bring healing items and a mage and you will apply more pressure than a Cleric can handle. Also, wizards are ranged and hold doors extremely well, plenty a ranger has taken fireballs to the face while peeking an angle, its a mage classic.

In a 3v3 fight where you, your teammates and enemies are all walking an invis mage can easily slip by and nuke from the backline, it happens all the time in high roller lobbies.

Im not saying you cant outplay a mage or that they are stupid broken, i just feel like they got more going for them in a lot more aspects than other classes.

Im ok with wizards having 5 charges of their offensive attacks, since they really need those to fight and defend themselves but the haste and invis being reduced to 3 would make them less spammable during engagements

[Herbspiceguy]

Some other things/downsides to consider:

-Friendly fire(ball), teamfights in small hallways make it too risky/impossible to launch a good fireball without hitting teammates. I've accidentally killed several teammates, because I was sure I could land a hit on multiple enemies, but then a teammate would move in front last minute.
-Limited spell charges; kite, lure a wizard to burn his spells and he becomes prey.
-Projectile speed; fireball and magic missile are not the fastest projectiles, so their impact falls off hard on long distances and become very easily dodgeable.
-We've only had a few playtests, in general, definitely not limited to "wiz op", I feel like it's too early to call for nerfs/buffs right now. Players will become better at handling different situations and fights against different classes. I'd rather wait and see how things play out a few months in early access.

Regarding invis, I definitely feel wiz needs this for survivability considering their squishiness. I think it's better & more subtle approach then iceblock + frostnova for example.

[jest]

I ran a triple mage comp in high-rollers and we wiped every high roller lobby without dying once.

Between 15 fireballs and 12 chain lightnings there is nothing anyone could do. Just one of us could've ran in with ignite-haste-invis and oneshot all your players, one after the other. You die if you try to peek, you die if you run and hide.

It is like those scene in Star Wars with a jedi master wading through hapless droids. With 3 of us it is simply uncounterable.

[[EVB] Great Destino]

Originally posted by Bittersweet:

Some other things/downsides to consider:

-Friendly fire(ball), teamfights in small hallways make it too risky/impossible to launch a good fireball without hitting teammates. I've accidentally killed several teammates, because I was sure I could land a hit on multiple enemies, but then a teammate would move in front last minute.
-Limited spell charges; kite, lure a wizard to burn his spells and he becomes prey.
-Projectile speed; fireball and magic missile are not the fastest projectiles, so their impact falls off hard on long distances and become very easily dodgeable.
-We've only had a few playtests, in general, definitely not limited to "wiz op", I feel like it's too early to call for nerfs/buffs right now. Players will become better at handling different situations and fights against different classes. I'd rather wait and see how things play out a few months in early access.

Regarding invis, I definitely feel wiz needs this for survivability considering their squishiness. I think it's better & more subtle approach then iceblock + frostnova for example.

1. Skill issue, every class has friendly fire, this only speaks to the fact that wizard is the biggest nuker and can potentially also 1 shot your friends instead of your enemies. Doing too much damage isnt a downside

2. Cant kite a wizard because haste.

3. Not saying its game breaking, just raising the discussion if they are doing a little too much compared to the rest.

I do agree Wiz needs defensive options, which is why either making so you cant move during invis (like rogues) or reduce the number of charges so they cant use it multiple times every engagement could be a suggestion. Mages cant be the best damage at range, have the best mobility and the best invisibility.