Rogue is the worst class in the game by far

[Kiel]

EDIT: After a lot of analyzing people's feedback, I realize the actual issue is less of Rogue's skillset, but moreso a very heavy dependence on gear.

https://youtu.be/ZHKkDcj0f7E?t=26

As an example, SoBadStrange's Rogue has a unique dagger with 37 damage, with 42 AGI, 104 health, and movespeed of 337. Basekit Rogue dagger is 14 damage, with 35 AGI, 84 health, and 300 movespeed.

He's melting most people he finds in 2-3 hits, even players with blue gear. The difference in movespeed and attack speed between basekit and full blues is night and day. Now of course as a Rogue, this is what you want. Survivability can take a back seat here for focusing on damage, I never had a problem with Rogues being glass cannons.

So the problem is more that gear scaling for Rogues seems kind of ridiculous. At lower gear levels, it takes forever to kill stuff, but at higher gear levels, everything just melts.

In terms of Rogues dying easily, 84 to 104 health is great, it's probably the difference between getting 2 shot and getting 3 shot, especially if you use blue potions. But again, that's the difference between the two extremes. At least with that level of squishiness in full blues, it's justified by the fact that you can melt enemies in 2-3 hits, sometimes before they can even get a swing in. I don't see that level of justification underneath that level though.

The tradeoff of how many times you have to hit something in order to kill it versus the risk you take of getting hit / killed yourself is swung massively in your favor once you hit a certain threshold of damage output. Before that though, is where I repeatedly say it feels bad going toe-to-toe with a Barb, like a mosquito trying to kill an elephant. You just don't have the movespeed, attack speed, or damage to make those engagements worth it.




Original text:

After playing nothing but Rogue this last playtest, I'm disappointed at how pathetic of a class Rogue is.

On paper and in a straight on fight, Rogue has all the weaknesses of all the classes. You are as squishy as a Ranger or Wizard and the weapon strength, but are also pretty much strictly melee like Barb because you can't equip a bow (and the throwing knives are pure garbage). You have to contend with Barb's ability to 1 or 2-shot you while he is able to take a ridiculous amount of hits (even by stabbing their vulnerable torso). You also have to run face-first into any of the ranged classes, but your speed is hardly fast enough to duck and dodge all the stuff they can throw at you. Wizard speed boost and Barb shout is way faster in comparison. You're basically set up to lose straight up in a 1v1 unless your opponent whiffs a stupid amount of attacks. The only person you can win against is a Rogue because he has all the same weaknesses as you.

"So just use stealth then!"

Invisibility is SUPPOSED to be the Rogue's bread and butter, and it's absolutely horrible. Specifically having to waste a skill slot for the ability to walk / crouch 10 steps before it breaks is such a spit in the face when compared to Wizard who gets 4 perks AND 5 spell slots, while also being able to sprint (on top of his speed buff) while invisible too. You don't even get the stealth bonus when using invisible potions either, it breaks when you do anything like everyone else.

Even if you run stealth for the potential of surprise ambush+backstabbing someone, there's a big issue when you run into a 2 or 3 man group of: "Who the hell do I kill first?" And that's the part that hurts. Every target is a bad target because of the existence of other members. Regardless of who you kill, you can only use stealth once every 45 seconds, so as soon as you pop out of stealth (and even in the best-case scenario being able to kill someone), you're now at a huge disadvantage because you're forced into a straight fight. If you kill the squishy people, you're going to die to the Barb or Fighter. If you somehow get lucky enough to kill the Barb or Fighter (which most of the time you won't, even if you stack every possible ambush/stealth related perk), you're going to get kited, slowed, and rooted to death from anyone else while trying to either run away and wait for your stealth to come back up, or running at them face-first.

The class is a one-shot gimmick with no redeeming qualities, especially playing solo. He needs some SERIOUS love next patch.

[Sythalin]

TL;DR

All of my escapes during my short playtime have been with the Rogue. And if a baddie like me can do it, anyone can. Thread already proven wrong.

/closethread

[fcmalk]

i sucked at rogue, watched some youtube videos where rogues demolished as rogue, just weaving in and out ducking barb hits turning with the swings, turns out i just suck at rogue, but am a good cleric or ranger

[LSB777]

What I find hilarious is that the Mage's Invis is straight-up superior to the Rogue's. It's spammable too.

[Marksman Max]

Originally posted by Kiel:

On paper and in a straight on fight, Rogue has all the weaknesses of all the classes. You are as squishy as a Ranger or Wizard and the weapon strength, but are also pretty much strictly melee like Barb because you can't equip a bow (and the throwing knives are pure garbage).

So this just isn't correct. Rogue has the highest AGI stat of all the classes, which means you have the fastest base movespeed and attack speed of any class. Throwing knives don't deal a lot of damage. but they do slow targets considerably and also work with your bleed skills.

Originally posted by Kiel:

You have to contend with Barb's ability to 1 or 2-shot you while he is able to take a ridiculous amount of hits (even by stabbing their vulnerable torso).

Barbarian was hilariously easy for a Rogue to counter this test. You move considerably faster than he does; even if he rages, you could probably just holster your weapon and run away for five seconds until his buff wears off, or smack him with a throwing knife or two to keep him from reaching you. Due to the movespeed changes while swinging two-handed weapons, all you have to do is juke out the Barb's swings and hit him with a Dagger/Rapier during the recovery. Hell, a Rapier can out-range a Barb using a Felling Axe or Hatchet.

Originally posted by Kiel:

You also have to run face-first into any of the ranged classes, but your speed is hardly fast enough to duck and dodge all the stuff they can throw at you.

Not even close to correct; even simple AD strafing would dodge 90% of the arrows shot at you, and I did it all the time. Granted, as a Rogue, you're also supposed to ambush people.

Originally posted by Kiel:

Wizard speed boost and Barb shout is way faster in comparison.

Barb's speed boost with Rage isn't really that good, and he even takes extra damage while it's active, meaning a good Rapier stab or two would keep him at bay AND deal extra damage. Wizards are another matter entirely.

Originally posted by Kiel:

Invisibility is SUPPOSED to be the Rogue's bread and butter, and it's absolutely horrible. Specifically having to waste a skill slot for the ability to walk / crouch 10 steps before it breaks is such a spit in the face when compared to Wizard who gets 4 perks AND 5 spell slots, while also being able to sprint (on top of his speed buff) while invisible too. You don't even get the stealth bonus when using invisible potions either, it breaks when you do anything like everyone else.

This is your only take that I agree with; a geared Wizard is basically a better Rogue minus the utility (lockpicking/trap disarm). That's more of an issue with the Wizard class IMO.

Originally posted by Kiel:

Even if you run stealth for the potential of surprise ambush+backstabbing someone, there's a big issue when you run into a 2 or 3 man group of: "Who the hell do I kill first?" And that's the part that hurts. Every target is a bad target because of the existence of other members. Regardless of who you kill, you can only use stealth once every 45 seconds, so as soon as you pop out of stealth (and even in the best-case scenario being able to kill someone), you're now at a huge disadvantage because you're forced into a straight fight.

With even a little bit of forward thinking, you are almost never forced into a straight fight. Taking out one person in a duo or trio and falling back to a previously-cleared area is an effective strategy for whittling down parties.

You also don't have to use Hide to initiate a fight, and if anything, I actually would not use it for that purpose. I prefer using Hide as a disengagement tool; run back to the previous room, pop your Hide somewhere, and you're pretty much solid unless a Ranger tracks you down with the footsteps perk. Incendiary weapons in chokepoints also work well for getting hostiles off your tail.

Originally posted by Kiel:

If you kill the squishy people, you're going to die to the Barb or Fighter. If you somehow get lucky enough to kill the Barb or Fighter (which most of the time you won't, even if you stack every possible ambush/stealth related perk), you're going to get kited, slowed, and rooted to death from anyone else while trying to either run away and wait for your stealth to come back up, or running at them face-first.

There's really nothing I can say here apart from "skill issue" so I'll leave it there.

[Sunshine]

git gud is a meme but it applies the most to rogue. best solo class for a reason

[BIinzer]

This is just silly. Rogue kills people insanely quick once he's on them.

[Shura]

+ I played rogue solo. Get 20 lvl. Im escaped with high rate. BUT u cant fight, only loot that u can and wait till safe portal will appear. Becouse u have no save ability. U need invise for going throu mobs like archers and wizards to not die. U cant attack party, becouse u have 80 hp u dead if attack. U cant attack wizard or fighter - they are just better classes, they kill u. U maybe can ambush wizard BUT that is 50/50 fight. If wizard is good u are dead. Invise dont going on CD when u use it, so wait some body to ambush is bad desision becouse u have no save to move throu rooms. U can equip only dagger and rapier so u cant broke anything EVEN SPIDER SPAVNER(i hate it). U lose 2 perk of 4 for invis can just work slightly better and u use poison for clear rooms. BUT u anyway dance with every skeleton for 20 sec to not get hurt. U have only 1 free slot for some perk and it only anti trap or lockpick. Any other perk just cant help u survive or loot. So yeah rogue is VERY HARD for solo play. Even if u survive u get minimum value becouse cant risk, u have no safe skill, u not enough fast for hit and run. And u have no range attacks. I wander why devs dont give rogue ability to use other calsses tools like rangers traps. This calss is poor becouse all u can do it use invise and stab. And if u lucky (enemy just slowminded or new for game and cant - turn with sheald, use insta invise or haste, or use his special save skills) u kill some 1. But most of a time u just play hide-loot-hide becouse u just have no save skill for emergency situation, u have no sheald for save or bow for kite, u have no good armor rate becouse if u do u slow. I have supper slow clear speed becouse dance with every monster. This class is prity poor imho.

[Legendairy2]

Originally posted by Shura:

U need invise for going throu mobs like archers and wizards to not die.

This sentence alone discredited anything else you had to say rofl Rogue can kill archers and wizard AI just fine

[Shura]

Originally posted by Legendairy2:

Originally posted by Shura:

U need invise for going throu mobs like archers and wizards to not die.

This sentence alone discredited anything else you had to say rofl Rogue can kill archers and wizard AI just fine

Lol u dont play game solo. I see it from 1st word. Ofc u can kill them. Only if u have 30-40 sec time and have no enemes behind. U save invise for emergency not clear.

[ARealTuffCookie]

I found the rogue the most exciting and enjoyable solo class tbh. When i'm not running in a 3 man i play rogue. Something about hunting and stalking wizards and rangers in groups waiting for the right time to backstab and gank then run away is a ton of fun. was even able to end whole teams at right moments.

I think it just depends on what you like playing as and your playstyle.

[Shura]

That is real rogue of the game
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtDuzKtzphY&t=4s

[Shura]

Originally posted by ARealTuffCookie:

I found the rogue the most exciting and enjoyable solo class tbh. When i'm not running in a 3 man i play rogue. Something about hunting and stalking wizards and rangers in groups waiting for the right time to backstab and gank then run away is a ton of fun. was even able to end whole teams at right moments.

I think it just depends on what you like playing as and your playstyle.

WIth this play style u survive 1 in 10 times.

[JhonwayneX]

I Soloed with every single char but cleric. Besides mage that is clearly broken IMO (only cause its stupid OP stealth) Rogue is hands up the best soloing. OC you can't solo every single party and win every fight. My strat was simple: is there a geared fighter? don't engage; even if u could kill a mate, u wont be able to loot him, so why would you? IMO fighter is rogue's nemesis.

Anyways i didn't check any content creator or w/e. I like to learn by myself, so i'm probably missing many things.

Another thing is the leaderboard, many rogues were on top, so... That's not my opinion or my personal experience that's objective.

And last thing, when playing in party, i felt much more confortable not equiping invis for extra dmg skill and a support perk. Anyways playing with my friends is a clown fiesta (:

Edit: I forgot the main thing. You need a good base OH dagger, figure out what is it. Even in grey quality you need it 100%.

[Kiel]

Originally posted by Marksman Max:

Rogue has the highest AGI stat of all the classes, which means you have the fastest base movespeed and attack speed of any class.

Sweet, I move like 1% faster than everyone else. What a deal.

Originally posted by Marksman Max:

Barbarian was hilariously easy for a Rogue to counter this test. Due to the movespeed changes while swinging two-handed weapons, all you have to do is juke out the Barb's swings and hit him with a Dagger/Rapier during the recovery.

Yeah that 1% movespeed is gonna be a real winner versus the Barb that can go 15% faster. Oh wait and then you also have to hit him 10+ times where he only has to hit you MAYBE twice. Great strategy.

Originally posted by Marksman Max:

Not even close to correct; even simple AD strafing would dodge 90% of the arrows shot at you, and I did it all the time. Granted, as a Rogue, you're also supposed to ambush people.

Wow it's almost like the whole point of the post was talking about what happens when you DON'T have stealth. Also, "just dodge lol" is the dumbest response as you're just banking on someone being a bad shot.

Originally posted by Marksman Max:

Barb's speed boost with Rage isn't really that good, and he even takes extra damage while it's active

Oh no, he takes extra damage! It'll only take you 8 stabs instead of 10 to kill him versus the one or two he has to hit on you! And him getting right up in your face to invalidate your speed by making you way easier to hit just doesn't matter! It's SUCH a bad skill, I agree.

Originally posted by Marksman Max:

With even a little bit of forward thinking, you are almost never forced into a straight fight. You also don't have to use Hide to initiate a fight, and if anything, I actually would not use it for that purpose. I prefer using Hide as a disengagement tool; run back to the previous room, pop your Hide somewhere, and you're pretty much solid unless a Ranger tracks you down with the footsteps perk. Incendiary weapons in chokepoints also work well for getting hostiles off your tail.

Yeah sure, it's not like the team will immediately chase you using the plethora of slowing / rooting / speedboosting abilities that they have and won't immediately find you upon stealthing. It's almost like the entire point of my post was "wow look how much Rogue sucks outside of just one-shotting someone" and all you did was go "lol just do X" like that actually means anything. Beyond delusional.

[Kiel]

Originally posted by BIinzer:

This is just silly. Rogue kills people insanely quick once he's on them.

"i literally didnt read anything the post said"