Non-Whiney Feedback on Rogue Class

[BUNGO]

Leveled a rogue up to 20 during the latest playtest and spent most of that time experimenting with the different perks and skills available, with the idea that I wanted to see what kinds of builds were possible and test some of your ideas for perks and skills.

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PERKS:

Poison Blade - This perk seems fine to me, adds a nice dot that you can stack with accurate stabs allowing you do to hit and run tactics.

Dagger Expert - 5% damage boost seems low imo, it's not a compelling perk to take. If my highest damage dagger is doing 35 damage per hit, that adds 1.75 damage when I have the strongest hitting dagger. It's okay, but also feels meh.

Ambush - This one is interesting and obviously has a nice idea behind it to reward sneaky players who want to get the jump on players. It's also usable mid-combat if you just use your invis as a instant buff after being spotted.

Backstab - No issue with this one, makes sense. +30% damage boost is good.

Lockpick - Good, no biggie, love it

Pick Pocket - I don't really know what the idea behind this one is. In concept, it is COOL. I can steal an item from an enemy. BUT, it took me 2 hours of trying to actually pull it off on a player - and when I did, it was disappointing. You don't get to choose what you steal, so I was rewarded with 8 gold coins from the player after try-harding for 2 friggin hours.

Pick Pocket should be reworked - no one is going to take this perk in it's current state.

Animation for pickpocket should be instant, I should be able to pick which item I want to steal from their inventory, I should be able to steal 1 item and then pickpocket goes on cooldown for 1 minute, rarity of item determines success chance for pickpocketing, you should allow a pickpocket to be completed even if the player walks away (5 second timer to pickpocket after successfully getting your hand in their pocket) - otherwise you'll never have time to grab an item. Should be usable without breaking the invis from Hide skill.

I LOVE the idea of pickpocket, but it's just not good enough to choose over the other perks at this time. It is nearly impossible to pull off on a player and the rewards are random and not worth the effort.\


Silent Footsteps - I love this one and run it all the time. ONE PROBLEM though. Why do MY OWN footsteps still sound so loud to myself?

I know the perk is working because people don't react to my movement close to them. BUT, it's incredibly confusing to hear YOUR OWN footsteps be so loud and echo off the walls when they are supposed to be silent. I'm constantly checking to see if I'm crouching because my feet are still so loud - needs some fixing there.

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SKILLS:

Smoke Bomb - I never saw any rogue using this skill except for me, after playing for 30+ hours over the 4 days. I took it for a while and I saw why.

Smoke bomb rarely did what I thought it was intended to do, which was SAVE MY ASS. It is supposed to slow players down by 15% and obscure their vision. It does those things, but the effect is so minor that it didn't really feel like it made a difference. For one, I AM ALSO blinded by the smoke - so I lose vision too, and the minor slow rarely made a large enough difference in spacing to allow me to get away from sprinting teams of 3.

I would suggest making the area of effect larger and maybe making the slow a 20%. Cooldown is quick on it, which is nice, but I rarely needed to use it over and over and over. And MAYBE - allow the rogue who threw the smoke bomb to slightly see through it better than other players. So I can use it to cause chaos and stab or run away and see what my enemies are doing behind it but they can't see me.


Bleed - Seems good, a nice dot to stack with poison. I love the idea of giving rogues a hit-and-run style of gameplay. Especially when we run into groups as solo players a lot.


Weakpoint - For some reason this skill felt much weaker than the poison blade and bleed combo. Idk if that's just me, but I swapped off of it fairly quick because it just did not seem to kill enemies as fast.


Hide - Did you guys nerf this skill a bit? The hide effect seems like it expires WAY too fast. I get like 30 seconds of invis - but it feels like I need 45 - 60 seconds.

Players hang around in rooms for upwards of 1-2 minutes and decloaking in a corner while 3 players are in there is bad news.

I would suggest tweaking Hide to be more like 60 seconds of invis effect, but LONGER cooldown on use. Rather than what it seems like you've done.


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MY IDEAS:

Distraction Skill / Noise-maker Item - Give rogues an item that they can throw that produces the sounds of footsteps or crumbling rocks at the location it lands at. They must take a perk to be able to use the item. Can be used used from stealth. Helps get players off your ass when hiding after a pursuit.


Booby Trap Skill - Rogues can booby trap up to 2 chests or doors (limited use). When a player opens the chest it produces a poison cloud that applies a damage over time effect or smoke bomb effect. Allows for deception, ambush, and ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. Could be a perk or skill.


Sound Traps - A rogue can place a wire / trap in a line across a walkway or room. If a player hits it, it produces a loud sound attracting / aggroing the whole room of NPC enemies onto that location. (limited uses of course, like spells, maybe 2 use limit)


In general, I feel like the rogue needs more deception and ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ to mess with players minds - since we are not made to be good at direct combat. I'd like to distract players away from me, slow them down, and give me choices.


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Thanks for the amazing game. I love the ideas you've had for it so far.

[*k0mm1]

Kudos to you ,seems like a valid review.
For me I played most of the time cleric and had rarely any rogue that could kill me. 100% with the smoke bomb , one time used against me but the effect was rather short and I could catch up fast

[Crow]

As someone who solo-rogued and experienced the sweet satisfaction of ambush wiping 3 man teams - Amazing review of the class, well done. Love the idea for the additions as well, found it strange that the ranger had access to a bear trap but the rogue had nothing even close.

Another recommendation I _might_ say needs to be changed - The dagger damage for rogues is horrid. Once you have a blue/purple it obviously no longer matters, but it can make the come-up exceedingly difficult when you run into a stretch of bad RNG on loot/merchants and continuously get your ass beat because you don't at least have a blue dagger/rapier.

[POPICH]

60 sec cooldown on a skill.... while the whole pvp match goes for 9 minutes at most. It should last at least 60 sec with a cooldown not more than 30 seconds otherwise it is barely usable. still better than a smoke bomb but both skills are really weak.
P/S/ invis potion is infinite as far as i know (from my experience) and does not break when somebody body slams you (but i might be wrong ) . didn't have enough resources to test

[Marmot]

If you get serious and focus on surviving for as long as possible, not just cheesy cheap kills on bambis at the start of the map, then direct combat is inevitable. Because by the end circle, you will face opponents that see you from afar, and won't ever walk into you with their guard down.

Then you either get carried by your other 2 teamates or you go for the weakest link in the enemy group like a wizard/ranger/another rogue.

But if the enemy group consists for instance of a cleric, barb and fighter or cleric, barb and ranger, you are ♥♥♥♥♥♥, it's like shooting a handgun at a tank, while everyone - the fighter, the barb, the ranger can 1-2 shot you.

So yeah rogue is a great chest opener for monetary value and fun to kill noobs, but for endgame against strong groups, he's literally the most useless class.

Not to mention the new ghost boss is for some stupid reason made primarily for ranged damage, so there it will really hurt having a rogue in the group.

[Marmot]

There should be no limit on the Hide skill or the time limit should only start ticking when you move from your position while crouched, but if you remain stationary, you should be able to stay in your position an unlimitted amount of time.

And in my opinion, throwable knives shouldnt be consumed on use, they should have infinite use and many quality levels, just the delay between using them should be a bit longer.

The base damage of all daggers should be higher or you should be able to attack with both if you have two and do slightly more damage.

[BUNGO]

İlk olarak Leeloo tarafından gönderildi:

There should be no limit on the Hide skill or the time limit should only start ticking when you move from your position while crouched, but if you remain stationary, you should be able to stay in your position an unlimitted amount of time.

And in my opinion, throwable knives shouldnt be consumed on use, they should have infinite use and many quality levels, just the delay between using them should be a bit longer.

The base damage of all daggers should be higher or you should be able to attack with both if you have two and do slightly more damage.

Agree on the daggers, it felt kind of silly to equip 2 daggers but you could only attack with 1 at a time...why would I do that? lol

I feel like having 2 daggers equipped should change your attack combo into a 5 hit quick attack with both daggers. So you sacrifice move speed for extra damage and combo hits.

[pirate]

Pickpocket has never been good in these types of games. I do think they should make it better once in a while.

Since this is just a big kill player and take his loot game, makes sense that Pickpocket can be a non-combat way of stealing loot.

[Kyso4ek]

Needs more emphasis on damage over time
Also needs to be able to climb walls like Garrett in thief 2 or like in elder Scrolls daggerfall
Hide... Maybe make it last longer

[Garahel]

Witnessing my friend use smoke bomb made me realize the potential for sneaky, slippery plays. Smoke cloud could be a bit bigger, but it's pretty effective as is in the hands of a good player. Pickpocketing on the other hand is completely useless, maybe they will add some niche use for it in the future, like pickpocketing a key or something off a boss mob or player.

If they are staying faithful to the dungeons and dragons rogue experience. I would like to see some kind of dash or dodge ability.

[Stunbot]

To Start off smoke bomb needs to be 50% speed reduction to even consider taking. Dagger expert needs be 10% atleast. And dagger /rapier needs a bit more base damage.

[Stunbot]

İlk olarak Leeloo tarafından gönderildi:

There should be no limit on the Hide skill or the time limit should only start ticking when you move from your position while crouched, but if you remain stationary, you should be able to stay in your position an unlimitted amount of time.

And in my opinion, throwable knives shouldnt be consumed on use, they should have infinite use and many quality levels, just the delay between using them should be a bit longer.

The base damage of all daggers should be higher or you should be able to attack with both if you have two and do slightly more damage.

Infinite throwers would be way too op.. Lolwut

[Stunbot]

İlk olarak Crow tarafından gönderildi:

As someone who solo-rogued and experienced the sweet satisfaction of ambush wiping 3 man teams - Amazing review of the class, well done. Love the idea for the additions as well, found it strange that the ranger had access to a bear trap but the rogue had nothing even close.

Another recommendation I _might_ say needs to be changed - The dagger damage for rogues is horrid. Once you have a blue/purple it obviously no longer matters, but it can make the come-up exceedingly difficult when you run into a stretch of bad RNG on loot/merchants and continuously get your ass beat because you don't at least have a blue dagger/rapier.

Blue dagger damage is still dog especially on the rapier.. 29 epic rapier damage? Lol

[BUNGO]

Good thoughts in the comments.

Overall I believe the rogue should not be buffed to be good at direct combat. Giving them god tier daggers isn't the answer in my opinion. They can stab very quickly - giving them 50 damage daggers would be insane when they can hit 3 times in 1-2 seconds - and have +100 or +50% damage modifier skills.

In my humble opinion, rogues should be built as sneaky, fast, low-med damage hit and run fighters. You poison, stab a few times, distract and hide. Then you do it again from a new direction - killing groups 1 by 1 by catching stragglers or ambushing solos after harrassing them for a few minutes.

Rouge's apply damage over time through hit and run, poison traps, bleeds, and ambushes. Then finish their prey when they are weakened.

If they added the noisemaker item idea I had for rogues. A rogue could effectively act like a "dungeon master" setting low damage / annoying traps, aggroing mobs onto enemies, misdirecting players with noise manipulation, door smoke traps for ambushing and chaos causing, and then finally ambushing for a kill or two.

All of those items do low-med INDIRECT damage over time. But aren't so powerful that they don't give a well organized group a chance of survival. A smart rogue could dismantle a group of 2 or 3 by himself with smart use of these items over the course of 2-3 rooms of harassment and well positioned attacks.

You can't just make rogues play like fighters and barbs and left click for damage. What is the point of a rogue if they play the same as those classes but have a lockpick and hide ability? It's not unique enough. So far, they're doing a good job, but rogues need more tools to augment their lowish damage / armor.

[Marmot]

İlk olarak Borges tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Leeloo tarafından gönderildi:

There should be no limit on the Hide skill or the time limit should only start ticking when you move from your position while crouched, but if you remain stationary, you should be able to stay in your position an unlimitted amount of time.

And in my opinion, throwable knives shouldnt be consumed on use, they should have infinite use and many quality levels, just the delay between using them should be a bit longer.

The base damage of all daggers should be higher or you should be able to attack with both if you have two and do slightly more damage.

Infinite throwers would be way too op.. Lolwut

Ok so what about ranger and fighter having 70 damage bows then? Is that not OP? Compared to 15 damage throwing knives you have to refill?

[Marmot]

İlk olarak RO0ZiE tarafından gönderildi:

Good thoughts in the comments.

Overall I believe the rogue should not be buffed to be good at direct combat. Giving them god tier daggers isn't the answer in my opinion. They can stab very quickly - giving them 50 damage daggers would be insane when they can hit 3 times in 1-2 seconds - and have +100 or +50% damage modifier skills.

In my humble opinion, rogues should be built as sneaky, fast, low-med damage hit and run fighters. You poison, stab a few times, distract and hide. Then you do it again from a new direction - killing groups 1 by 1 by catching stragglers or ambushing solos after harrassing them for a few minutes.

Rouge's apply damage over time through hit and run, poison traps, bleeds, and ambushes. Then finish their prey when they are weakened.

If they added the noisemaker item idea I had for rogues. A rogue could effectively act like a "dungeon master" setting low damage / annoying traps, aggroing mobs onto enemies, misdirecting players with noise manipulation, door smoke traps for ambushing and chaos causing, and then finally ambushing for a kill or two.

All of those items do low-med INDIRECT damage over time. But aren't so powerful that they don't give a well organized group a chance of survival. A smart rogue could dismantle a group of 2 or 3 by himself with smart use of these items over the course of 2-3 rooms of harassment and well positioned attacks.

You can't just make rogues play like fighters and barbs and left click for damage. What is the point of a rogue if they play the same as those classes but have a lockpick and hide ability? It's not unique enough. So far, they're doing a good job, but rogues need more tools to augment their lowish damage / armor.

They need some kind of boost, they shouldn't be so weak that they still need to land 2 headshots on a skeleton to kill it while wearing legendaries. They shouldn't be so squishy that a barb 1 shots them.