When did Women = Woke? This is just a good game, Can't everyone be happy?

[TrashMobRelic]

Brothers was 2 males
A Way Out was 2 males
It Takes Two was 1 male 1 female
This time it's 2 females

This studio built up a good history and makes good games. People are excited to play because of the studio and the concept. Having a female lead has never stopped a game from being popular, being a bad game has. Having a female lead didn't work against Horizon, Stellar Blade, Baldur's Gate 3, Tomb Raider series, FF13, Kena: Bridge of Spirits, Nier, Metroid, Bayonetta, Fire Emblem, etc.

Many female lead games, the "woke" crowd tried to cancel. They even tried to cancel A Way Out because it was "too macho" and had no female player characters.

I'm actually surprised that this game hasn't been targeted by the cancel crowd. Mio is a thick, dark haired, brown skinned (probably Hispanic), city dwelling, curvy lady who is broken and has daddy issues and her whole motivation is based on the well-being of a man (her father). Zoe is a white, feminine, family oriented, dreamer who is more emotionally complete and is emotionally supportive even when subjected to Mio's abuse.

The elegant Zoe turns into a Fairy and a Tree that makes her mother nature which allows her to control the world around them and gives her the power to help Mio if Zoe chooses. Zoe gets a whip that she can use to hit Mio if she wants.

The crass Mio turns into a otter-fish-thing and a monkey. The monkey can dance because of course it can. Mio solves her issues by stealing cars and shooting or stabbing her way through in her stories. Mio is also very ♥♥♥♥♥♥ and mean/abusive to Zoe initially. But with Zoe's soft nature and guiding hand, she becomes less awful.

[Hannibal]

I dont mind much, I mean Tomb Raider right? I just think we have gone far enough in gaming that characters should be customizable to sex, or race. Gaming used to be all about identifying as being the character. Regardless its not a huge issue either way but it would be nice to customize the character to whatever you identify with.

[VoiD]

Origineel geplaatst door Sharkle_Bunwich:

Origineel geplaatst door VoiD:

You'd have an easier life if you could handle reality.

Even now you're using nonsensical slang to try and describe normal people's position.

Normal people can't perceive any of it as "opression" because that kind of thought doesn't even pass through their minds, all of your perceptions and worldviews are completely alien to a healthy brain.

The issue is as simple as it looks, as simple as people are telling you, there is absolutely nothing you could argue or try to justify to change people's minds as this isn't a matter of opinion, once a developer releases something repulsive people are repulsed by the product, and that's the end of that.

And what, pray tell, are these "alien" and "repulsive" concepts? That there's nothing wrong with being gay or transgender? That LGBTQIA+, racial minority groups, and women should be allowed to live their lives and treated as equals? Have rights as equal? Be represented in media, as they always have for decades now, as equals? These aren't alien concepts to a healthy brain. They are alien concepts to a rotten, hateful one plagued by grifter slop on the internet disguised as things like self-help videos and video game critique.

Origineel geplaatst door VoiD:

There is no gameplay, no tweaks to the story, absolutely nothing you could do to get a normal person interested in something as disgusting as concord or veilguard, you tell me, pick anyone in that roster, do you truly believe any normal person is looking at that and thinking "I want to play that character so badly I'm willing to PAY for this!"? No. That's the issue, most people would rather pay to not be forced to even meet those people.

I do not understand why people on your side are so hyperfixated on games like Concord, Dragon Age, Dustborn, or whatever is going to be the next flavor of the week game when eventually the broken clock is right about a game they think is woke being bad. There are many much more plausible, boring reasons as to why these games failed. Concord failed because Sony tried capitalizing on an over saturated market of hero shooters and made the insanely moronic executive decision to charge $40 for it when every other game in that genre is F2P. On top of that, the art style was horrendous. Not even the most progressive liberal could tolerate whatever the hell Firewalk Studios thought they were doing with that aesthetic. And it very much suffered from Marvelitis and people are starting to get bored of that type of humor and campiness. Even I looked at it and said, "This is just looks like discount Guardians of the Galaxy." And it basically was.

Veilguard too - insanely poor, repetitive writing and the fact it was not a Dragon Age game by any stretch of the imagination made it destined to fail. And this isn't a new phenomenon either. Sometimes these teams make bad decisions when trying to reboot or revitalize a franchise and make the most tonally deaf departure from what the fans are used to. My favorite example of this is the Call of Juarez series; a franchise about cowboys in the west. When they went to make the 3rd installment, they for some reason set it in the modern age with modern guns, vehicles, etc. It turned a spaghetti western game into a run of the mill shooter. Why? Because modern shooters were very popular around the late 2000s thru early 2010s. You could say they tried making something to appeal to the modern audience at the time. You know, that phrase you all seem to hate that you believe exclusively applies to whatever you think woke is?

Origineel geplaatst door VoiD:

This is why the woke movement utterly failed, after a decade of the worst social engineering the entire world have ever seen they didn't just not get any results, they've managed to make apolitical normal people activelly hostile towards anything you ever cared about. We don't need a scientific article explaining the ideas of third wave feminism or critical race theory, or any influencer to decide we won't want to support the recent crap, all it takes is a look at the trash character designs to completely lose the interest in the product, this is why comics have collapsed in the west long before people understood what was going on with our games (and movies).

All that happened was that groups of different backgrounds and cultures started getting more representation. That representation destigmatizes those groups, more people openly express themselves as a result, and those communities grow. As a result, progress to equality grows. Some of those people make media themselves. Games are art. Anyone can make art. And art is supposed to challenge you and expose you to things you wouldn't normally see. Even though certain things may only apply to a small number of people it should still be celebrated. It can be appreciated. Even if you can't relate or even like it you should be happy that people have a crumb representation that those groups like compared to the mountains you have.

But instead, there's this massive pushback. And I sorta get it, sorta don't. You seem to believe that us doing this is somehow taking something away from you. You think that us going against the grain of the norm is taking away your values. And maybe there's some truth to that. Not in the sense that we took anything from you because, let's be honest, we didn't. You think we did because people started selling manufactured outrage to line their pockets. They sold you an easy solution to all your problems; "its them, it's always been them, they're the reason you're so miserable." But maybe its partially our fault for not giving you guys something else to put value in. So if you wanna have that discussion, I'm all ears. If you just wanna judge people based on the color of their skin, their gender identity, their sexuality, being a woman instead of a man, instead of judging them by the content of their character, then I'm not interested in talking to you any further.

I've explained the alien concepts.

Concord is a good example, because monetization was discarded as a possible source of it's failure, and so did gameplay.

Monetization was discarded when they held a closed beta, noticed nobody cared to join the game, so they made it a free open beta instead, close to the time when Marvel Rivals and Mecha Break both had 50k players in their own betas, all 3 had a free test, 2 of them had 50k players, but the known, and the unknown IP, and the one with the massive industry giant aparatus behind it's marketing didn't even reach 5k.

This also goes to show that the gameplay is irrelevant, the 45k missing players didn't care about the game enough to download to even see anything about it, long before people released any footage, and if we're being honest here, the gameplay was fine, everything else was the problem.

As you said, the hero shooter market was "saturated", but then Marvel Rivals gets millions of players in this saturated, market, so does Mechabreak with the most recent beta.... And concord didn't even break 3k testers.


Why do we fixate on these? Because they were cataclysmic failures on par with ET, and the only reasons for this is the ideology. They've made sure to remove every other variable this time around and we've seen the results, but there are plenty of other examples like Flintlock, Hyenas, Kenzera Zau, Forespoken, Saints row remake, unknown 9, homeworld 3, Capes, Cookie Cutter, Fairgame$, Intergalactic, Fable, AC Shadows, Avowed, etc...

Some of them are still unreleased, all of them were called before release, and all we needed was a glance at the designs to know all of these games were going to be trash.

Gameplay, genre or monetization were never a factor, in fact, you can have a game with terrible optimization and technical quality, like Monster Hunter Wilds, sitting on low review scores and still make millions, you can have terrible monetization like Mechabreak, you can have average gameplay, like The First Descendant, you can have games in "saturated" genres like Marvel Rivals and still print money, funny how easily asian devs are breaking into our market these days.

Then we have people right here, in this thread, trying to prove "it's not the ideology guys, we are capable of creating apealing products as well guys" citing Veilguard as an example, the memes write themselves.

[Sharkle_Bunwich]

Origineel geplaatst door VoiD:

Origineel geplaatst door Sharkle_Bunwich:

And what, pray tell, are these "alien" and "repulsive" concepts? That there's nothing wrong with being gay or transgender? That LGBTQIA+, racial minority groups, and women should be allowed to live their lives and treated as equals? Have rights as equal? Be represented in media, as they always have for decades now, as equals? These aren't alien concepts to a healthy brain. They are alien concepts to a rotten, hateful one plagued by grifter slop on the internet disguised as things like self-help videos and video game critique.



I do not understand why people on your side are so hyperfixated on games like Concord, Dragon Age, Dustborn, or whatever is going to be the next flavor of the week game when eventually the broken clock is right about a game they think is woke being bad. There are many much more plausible, boring reasons as to why these games failed. Concord failed because Sony tried capitalizing on an over saturated market of hero shooters and made the insanely moronic executive decision to charge $40 for it when every other game in that genre is F2P. On top of that, the art style was horrendous. Not even the most progressive liberal could tolerate whatever the hell Firewalk Studios thought they were doing with that aesthetic. And it very much suffered from Marvelitis and people are starting to get bored of that type of humor and campiness. Even I looked at it and said, "This is just looks like discount Guardians of the Galaxy." And it basically was.

Veilguard too - insanely poor, repetitive writing and the fact it was not a Dragon Age game by any stretch of the imagination made it destined to fail. And this isn't a new phenomenon either. Sometimes these teams make bad decisions when trying to reboot or revitalize a franchise and make the most tonally deaf departure from what the fans are used to. My favorite example of this is the Call of Juarez series; a franchise about cowboys in the west. When they went to make the 3rd installment, they for some reason set it in the modern age with modern guns, vehicles, etc. It turned a spaghetti western game into a run of the mill shooter. Why? Because modern shooters were very popular around the late 2000s thru early 2010s. You could say they tried making something to appeal to the modern audience at the time. You know, that phrase you all seem to hate that you believe exclusively applies to whatever you think woke is?



All that happened was that groups of different backgrounds and cultures started getting more representation. That representation destigmatizes those groups, more people openly express themselves as a result, and those communities grow. As a result, progress to equality grows. Some of those people make media themselves. Games are art. Anyone can make art. And art is supposed to challenge you and expose you to things you wouldn't normally see. Even though certain things may only apply to a small number of people it should still be celebrated. It can be appreciated. Even if you can't relate or even like it you should be happy that people have a crumb representation that those groups like compared to the mountains you have.

But instead, there's this massive pushback. And I sorta get it, sorta don't. You seem to believe that us doing this is somehow taking something away from you. You think that us going against the grain of the norm is taking away your values. And maybe there's some truth to that. Not in the sense that we took anything from you because, let's be honest, we didn't. You think we did because people started selling manufactured outrage to line their pockets. They sold you an easy solution to all your problems; "its them, it's always been them, they're the reason you're so miserable." But maybe its partially our fault for not giving you guys something else to put value in. So if you wanna have that discussion, I'm all ears. If you just wanna judge people based on the color of their skin, their gender identity, their sexuality, being a woman instead of a man, instead of judging them by the content of their character, then I'm not interested in talking to you any further.

I've explained the alien concepts.

Concord is a good example, because monetization was discarded as a possible source of it's failure, and so did gameplay.

Monetization was discarded when they held a closed beta, noticed nobody cared to join the game, so they made it a free open beta instead, close to the time when Marvel Rivals and Mecha Break both had 50k players in their own betas, all 3 had a free test, 2 of them had 50k players, but the known, and the unknown IP, and the one with the massive industry giant aparatus behind it's marketing didn't even reach 5k.

This also goes to show that the gameplay is irrelevant, the 45k missing players didn't care about the game enough to download to even see anything about it, long before people released any footage, and if we're being honest here, the gameplay was fine, everything else was the problem.

As you said, the hero shooter market was "saturated", but then Marvel Rivals gets millions of players in this saturated, market, so does Mechabreak with the most recent beta.... And concord didn't even break 3k testers.


Why do we fixate on these? Because they were cataclysmic failures on par with ET, and the only reasons for this is the ideology. They've made sure to remove every other variable this time around and we've seen the results, but there are plenty of other examples like Flintlock, Hyenas, Kenzera Zau, Forespoken, Saints row remake, unknown 9, homeworld 3, Capes, Cookie Cutter, Fairgame$, Intergalactic, Fable, AC Shadows, Avowed, etc...

Some of them are still unreleased, all of them were called before release, and all we needed was a glance at the designs to know all of these games were going to be trash.

Gameplay, genre or monetization were never a factor, in fact, you can have a game with terrible optimization and technical quality, like Monster Hunter Wilds, sitting on low review scores and still make millions, you can have terrible monetization like Mechabreak, you can have average gameplay, like The First Descendant, you can have games in "saturated" genres like Marvel Rivals and still print money, funny how easily asian devs are breaking into our market these days.

Then we have people right here, in this thread, trying to prove "it's not the ideology guys, we are capable of creating apealing products as well guys" citing Veilguard as an example, the memes write themselves.

Maybe I'm missing something, but what ideology specifically are you referring to? And could you elaborate on these "alien concepts" you said you've explained already? Because I didn't see it.

[Regnier575]

Just people being idiots

[VoiD]

Origineel geplaatst door Sharkle_Bunwich:

Origineel geplaatst door VoiD:

I've explained the alien concepts.

Concord is a good example, because monetization was discarded as a possible source of it's failure, and so did gameplay.

Monetization was discarded when they held a closed beta, noticed nobody cared to join the game, so they made it a free open beta instead, close to the time when Marvel Rivals and Mecha Break both had 50k players in their own betas, all 3 had a free test, 2 of them had 50k players, but the known, and the unknown IP, and the one with the massive industry giant aparatus behind it's marketing didn't even reach 5k.

This also goes to show that the gameplay is irrelevant, the 45k missing players didn't care about the game enough to download to even see anything about it, long before people released any footage, and if we're being honest here, the gameplay was fine, everything else was the problem.

As you said, the hero shooter market was "saturated", but then Marvel Rivals gets millions of players in this saturated, market, so does Mechabreak with the most recent beta.... And concord didn't even break 3k testers.


Why do we fixate on these? Because they were cataclysmic failures on par with ET, and the only reasons for this is the ideology. They've made sure to remove every other variable this time around and we've seen the results, but there are plenty of other examples like Flintlock, Hyenas, Kenzera Zau, Forespoken, Saints row remake, unknown 9, homeworld 3, Capes, Cookie Cutter, Fairgame$, Intergalactic, Fable, AC Shadows, Avowed, etc...

Some of them are still unreleased, all of them were called before release, and all we needed was a glance at the designs to know all of these games were going to be trash.

Gameplay, genre or monetization were never a factor, in fact, you can have a game with terrible optimization and technical quality, like Monster Hunter Wilds, sitting on low review scores and still make millions, you can have terrible monetization like Mechabreak, you can have average gameplay, like The First Descendant, you can have games in "saturated" genres like Marvel Rivals and still print money, funny how easily asian devs are breaking into our market these days.

Then we have people right here, in this thread, trying to prove "it's not the ideology guys, we are capable of creating apealing products as well guys" citing Veilguard as an example, the memes write themselves.

Maybe I'm missing something, but what ideology specifically are you referring to? And could you elaborate on these "alien concepts" you said you've explained already? Because I didn't see it.

Origineel geplaatst door VoiD:

Origineel geplaatst door Sharkle_Bunwich:

"Woke" is only a problem if you have nothing else going on in your life. Especially if that is layered over a privileged life because now you see any act of equality as oppression against you when that's not even remotely the case.
.

Even now you're using nonsensical slang to try and describe normal people's position.

Normal people can't perceive any of it as "opression" because that kind of thought doesn't even pass through their minds, all of your perceptions and worldviews are completely alien to a healthy brain.

As for ideology, woke ideology, which is the same BS SJWs were pushing for, it includes everything third wave feminist have ever said, it includes every concept involving social engineering like trying to "normalize" anything for ♥♥♥♥♥ and giggles.

There was never an issue with having women as main characters, some of the most famous IPs had them.

There was never an issue with having black, arabic or whatever kind of people as main characters, some of the most famous IPs also had them.

There's plenty of wrong when studios start pushing female characters with insuferable personalities, terrible stories about "the man" trying to keep them down rewriten in a million "different" ways, all of them look and act repulsive, most actually look like men with longer hair, and they act like it too.

There's plenty of wrong when you walk into a city in Dragon's Dogma 2, which isn't woke, but has elements, and the main fantasy medieval system looks like a brazillian city's street with people of all races moving around as if the world was connected by airplanes and they'd all as if it wasn't a medieval setting, but Batthal right next door? No, that one's properly made, and has a better characterization where every character is either black or a furry lion and they all have their own accent and specific culture.

The ideology itself is the cancer that's getting purged from society, and people are cheering for it.

Edit: Also, imagine the brainrot that must possess a person to make something like this and expect people to like it: https://preview.redd.it/falling-short-critiquing-character-design-in-mortal-kombat-1-v0-94ebj240njmb1.png?width=1627&format=png&auto=webp&s=9a1ac589eb1e3483d79af22d8616544d9fb9603b

I don't have to ask or know anything about the company today, I see that, I know exactly what's going on with them. I'm amazed people were surprised when they gender swaped and ruined both Cyrax and Sektor, I mean, were they blind? Were they not paying attention? A picture like that tells you ALL anyone ever needs to know about what they are trying to push and what they were going to try to do going forward.

Likewise, do we really need to pretend we need to see any gameplay after we've already seen this? https://shared.cloudflare.steamstatic.com/store_item_assets/steam/apps/2769570/ss_175ebeee35b2913fee8f6d29d4d4aafc6c5c3253.jpg?t=1717960572
We know what kind of person made this, and we know what they want to inject into games, we never needed any reasons beyond a single screenshot. Granted, it might get SOME sales because it's a famous IP, like Veilguard did, but the enraged buyers with silenced reviews are not going to stick around for the next game. Speaking of which, how come Druckman told us we shouldn't count on a TLOU3 if 2 was such a popular game?

[DEMANATI]

Origineel geplaatst door Sharkle_Bunwich:

Origineel geplaatst door DEMANATI:

im not privileged at all. im not even white... as a mexican

Congratulations, you subscribed to the mentality that throws you under the bus too.

you didnt even both reading what i said pretty bigoted of you to shut out my opinion the moment you found out im a poc

[TsudaTumiko]

I don't know but when I see this game I don't gave any impulse to play it, on the contrary, I love older tomb raider games, that's how female protagonist are made.

[Dad]

Nothing woke about it. Just a good game. Men don't have to be the only main characters of games. Sincerely, a man.

[möbius]

Origineel geplaatst door Sharkle_Bunwich:

I don't know how late you are but the whole "anti-woke" thing has always been on an attack the LGBT, women, and racial minority groups. It's never been a valid critique. It's just been a means of being openly bigoted toward groups they do not like.

WAGTFKY.

[Supreme Robot]

Origineel geplaatst door Game Cooker US Rocks VR:

Origineel geplaatst door Sharkle_Bunwich:

I don't know how late you are but the whole "anti-woke" thing has always been on an attack the LGBT, women, and racial minority groups. It's never been a valid critique. It's just been a means of being openly bigoted toward groups they do not like.

That's actually false. It's against the politics behind it. Not the people per se.

Is this but the people will not understand, this game is not woke, are just two girls in a big adventure and just this. Woke is if they using woman for political proporse and activism, this is why some people that says that are "anti-woke" need to rethink about and stop to say nonsense things and the industy need to make good games like this, the creator got in a bait and i hope that he understand it.

[Hurricane]

Origineel geplaatst door Sharkle_Bunwich:

I don't know how late you are but the whole "anti-woke" thing has always been on an attack the LGBT, women, and racial minority groups. It's never been a valid critique. It's just been a means of being openly bigoted toward groups they do not like.

Patently false.
It has always been against the pandering, the lecturing, the shallow characters whose only trait is their gender/ethnic group/other superficial pointless detail, ...
Other examples would include having women parity in soldiers from armies from the antiquity (AC garbage since ... I don't recall).
I think it could be summarized with "whatever the culture of victim-hood produces".

Nobody cares about having well-written characters who are (whatever trait) as long as they are properly made and fit well in the world/story.
That's why the "normal" ones don't complain against BG3, KCD2, ...
That being said, a good deal of the anti-woke content creators turned out to be liars, rage-baiting or grifters (and sometimes a combination of).
But, as loud as they are, they don't represent the players who were fed-up by these bad games.

From what I've seen/heard this game is well made.

[BPScott95]

Origineel geplaatst door Hurricane:

Origineel geplaatst door Sharkle_Bunwich:

I don't know how late you are but the whole "anti-woke" thing has always been on an attack the LGBT, women, and racial minority groups. It's never been a valid critique. It's just been a means of being openly bigoted toward groups they do not like.

Patently false.
It has always been against the pandering, the lecturing, the shallow characters whose only trait is their gender/ethnic group/other superficial pointless detail, ...
Other examples would include having women parity in soldiers from armies from the antiquity (AC garbage since ... I don't recall).
I think it could be summarized with "whatever the culture of victim-hood produces".

Nobody cares about having well-written characters who are (whatever trait) as long as they are properly made and fit well in the world/story.
That's why the "normal" ones don't complain against BG3, KCD2, ...
That being said, a good deal of the anti-woke content creators turned out to be liars, rage-baiting or grifters (and sometimes a combination of).
But, as loud as they are, they don't represent the players who were fed-up by these bad games.

From what I've seen/heard this game is well made.

But the "anti-wokers" did complain about BG3 and especially KCD2... don't rewrite history here.

We saw *weeks* of it when KCD2 came out.

[76561199819639073]

111

[ShadowDark3]

Origineel geplaatst door Hurricane:

Origineel geplaatst door Sharkle_Bunwich:

I don't know how late you are but the whole "anti-woke" thing has always been on an attack the LGBT, women, and racial minority groups. It's never been a valid critique. It's just been a means of being openly bigoted toward groups they do not like.

Patently false.
It has always been against the pandering, the lecturing, the shallow characters whose only trait is their gender/ethnic group/other superficial pointless detail, ...
Other examples would include having women parity in soldiers from armies from the antiquity (AC garbage since ... I don't recall).
I think it could be summarized with "whatever the culture of victim-hood produces".

Nobody cares about having well-written characters who are (whatever trait) as long as they are properly made and fit well in the world/story.
That's why the "normal" ones don't complain against BG3, KCD2, ...
That being said, a good deal of the anti-woke content creators turned out to be liars, rage-baiting or grifters (and sometimes a combination of).
But, as loud as they are, they don't represent the players who were fed-up by these bad games.

From what I've seen/heard this game is well made.

Who decides what is pandering? What constitutes a lecture? Those things are not objective truths, they're subjective opinions. Like it or not, if you identify as anti-woke because you're "against pandering", you've put yourself in the same bucket as people who are blatantly bigoted.

On that note, if you see things like the inclusion or women as pandering (even in "historically accurate" games, because the key word there is GAME, and FYI Assassin's Creed has never been a paragon of historical accuracy), then you have some issues to work through on how you perceive women.

[VoiD]

Origineel geplaatst door BPScott95:

Origineel geplaatst door Hurricane:

Patently false.
It has always been against the pandering, the lecturing, the shallow characters whose only trait is their gender/ethnic group/other superficial pointless detail, ...
Other examples would include having women parity in soldiers from armies from the antiquity (AC garbage since ... I don't recall).
I think it could be summarized with "whatever the culture of victim-hood produces".

Nobody cares about having well-written characters who are (whatever trait) as long as they are properly made and fit well in the world/story.
That's why the "normal" ones don't complain against BG3, KCD2, ...
That being said, a good deal of the anti-woke content creators turned out to be liars, rage-baiting or grifters (and sometimes a combination of).
But, as loud as they are, they don't represent the players who were fed-up by these bad games.

From what I've seen/heard this game is well made.

But the "anti-wokers" did complain about BG3 and especially KCD2... don't rewrite history here.

We saw *weeks* of it when KCD2 came out.

when you have to lie it shows how desperate you are.