IS MARVEL SNAP TOO BALANCED

[kingts]

I have said this many times in this civil discussion tread of their major issue that they dull things down to an even keel. Where you truly see the flaws of their card creation as too safe and too dull. There is no such thing as balance when dealing with 20 archetypes, which with their help I defined on another tread so the question maybe confusing, but looking at the entire broad spectrum of all the cards and themes.

Disregarding all their bug, flaws, and simply lousy execution at times, including this monetization, AI and RNG inclusions and please let's not get into rage at the good people there trying to make a fun game, but keeping it simply to the question.

The question is simple. Is Marvel Snap too balanced?

[Si]

"Where you truly see the flaws of their card creation as too safe and too dull"

Personally I find this preferable to when they release cards like Red Hulk, Loki, Ms Marvel, Blob etc at which point the entire meta revolves around them.

[webmetalreese]

I will preface by saying this discussion can get quite lengthy for me as I consider everything encompassing as a game, so I'll be posting in segmented form.

The one that comes off the top for me balance wise is hard for me to place it into an actual 'this straight line is not balanced, so maybe you can help me to identify what is the imbalance.

It is in regards of card acquisition for a player who has completed series 3 and are now working through series 4 and 5, rolling keys and hoarding tokens. I've noticed many many players in twitch chat last night asking about Valentina and if she was worth the 6k cost.

Shortly after that I was in the Discord and reading something and there was a question about the lack of series 4 releases and where they had gone. SD response to this was that due to the spotlights making all of the series 5 cards for that spotlight week the same "rarity and chance", they don't want to release series 4 cards anymore. Once I thought about that for a second, they just don't want you to use their tokens at 3k anymore. Then, coming here and reading posts about players who are not series 4 complete using keys and getting a duplicate series 4 card even though they are not series complete. Not a variant, the base card.

The way SD has now eliminated 3k token cost, have placed spotlight keys into bundles and albums, as well as tokens into bundles that are behind enormous amounts of gold that is difficult to acquire in a short amount of time, has now (in my head) been pushing players to either give up and open the wallet or quit the game outright and head to review, complain, and speak about how greedy SD has become..... or to remain frustrated and angry due to the time spent to work through the ladder to only then be rewarded with something they already have, rather than an actual reward, with no recourse other than to lose out on the card and wait for it to come around again in the future.

The imbalance for me now looking at what I've stated - is that SD seems to be having all of their cake and eating ours too. This feels very very one sided and not in the players favor.

What are your thoughts?

[Balderdinger]

Having a highly balanced game is good in terms of allowing players to find the play that they enjoy and use it, rather than feel forced into a particular build they don't like. I remember back when SheNaut was the go-to winning deck, and I cringed every time I saw it .......... until I made my own, and then I just felt dirty.

Even called it "Obligatory".

With a more balanced game, I can run Loki just because I enjoy it, and have a decent shot at winning. I can murder DP a hundred times just because it's fun, and know that while there are plenty of counters out there, greater variety means I always have a decent shot at a win.

The PROBLEM I see with a more balanced game is that it turns everything into an absolute GRIND. Cubes are so hard to come by when everyone snaps when they've got it, and retreats when they don't. I find myself winning more 1-cube games than anything else because the second I snap, it prompts a retreat. And I can't blame them because I do the same so I don't get knocked too far down. I rarely get to see the big Turn 6 combo play out because most games never really finish. :/

[Ydrisselle]

Originally posted by Balderdinger:

Having a highly balanced game is good in terms of allowing players to find the play that they enjoy and use it, rather than feel forced into a particular build they don't like. I remember back when SheNaut was the go-to winning deck, and I cringed every time I saw it .......... until I made my own, and then I just felt dirty.

Even called it "Obligatory".

With a more balanced game, I can run Loki just because I enjoy it, and have a decent shot at winning. I can murder DP a hundred times just because it's fun, and know that while there are plenty of counters out there, greater variety means I always have a decent shot at a win.

The PROBLEM I see with a more balanced game is that it turns everything into an absolute GRIND. Cubes are so hard to come by when everyone snaps when they've got it, and retreats when they don't. I find myself winning more 1-cube games than anything else because the second I snap, it prompts a retreat. And I can't blame them because I do the same so I don't get knocked too far down. I rarely get to see the big Turn 6 combo play out because most games never really finish. :/

Yeah, usually the big combos only fire if your opponent also thinks their big combo will fire or they can kill your big combo in time to win the match.

And sometimes you get this:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3237843731

(I didn't snap because I wasn't sure that I would win)

[Zlehtnoba]

When I think about a game balance, I don't think about the economy, I think about the experience of a player who can play whatever they want to play.

I don't think SNAP is too balanced, as we have a few quite powerful cards and three- or four-card combinations that are clearly better than the rest. But we also have a varied field with many archetypes competing for the top spot from week to week. And we have Loki, so all's well :)

In fact, it's the random nature of the game that keeps it from feeling too balanced. Designers can afford a flatter power curve than many other games because of the randomness locations and random generation cards bring, keeping games fresh.

[Lady Ming]

I mean game balance seems much better with the Zabu nerf. It's like I kept saying, him making 4 costs 3 was just soo freaking good. Also looks like next set of drops will be happening "soon." So we will see what that does economy wise since there are currently 3x as many s5 as s4 cards.

https://discord.com/channels/978545345715908668/1235169024074059898/1235388231328202793

[Jackie Daytona]

Originally posted by kingts:

The question is simple. Is Marvel Snap too balanced?

It is, in fact, unbalanced.

I don't understand how anyone looks at the first cards vs. 5th series and can even ASK "is this game too balanced?"

Devs literally make public statements that 3/5 with great text are fair. Same people think 4/6 Thing (no game text) is a fair balance against this.

Seems like endless power creep.

[Si]

Originally posted by Jackie Daytona:

Originally posted by kingts:

The question is simple. Is Marvel Snap too balanced?

It is, in fact, unbalanced.

I don't understand how anyone looks at the first cards vs. 5th series and can even ASK "is this game too balanced?"

Devs literally make public statements that 3/5 with great text are fair. Same people think 4/6 Thing (no game text) is a fair balance against this.

Seems like endless power creep.

The only way spotlights work is if those cards are desirable. (Devs have acknowledged this, they want players to want the cards).

Only way that is going to happen is if the series 4/5 cards are the best. We've all seen people openly scorn weak S5 cards and tell others to skip those weeks.

So yeah generally there will never be balance, becauae in general (though obviously not every single case) the best cards will be the S4/S5 cards.

[Koori_89]

Chess is a balanced game that gives two people the chance to test their combination skills and cognitive thinking. You see a move a pattern and you account for possible moves and strategies. That is a balanced game.

Marvel snap is NOT a balanced game, and they make sure to enforce it, RNG on top of RNG:
You draw your deck backwards, and the opponent draws on curve = you lose.
You don't have a specific counter to X = you lose.
Locations favor your deck or outright deny you even playing = you lose.
The game flips a coin at the start and decides who wins or loses = you lose.

Skill accounts for about 35% of the game, and it revolves around 2-3 card mechanics which you eventually figure out and the ability to recognize the enemy strategy. When you have 3 counters to the opponents play in your deck and the game discards one and bottom decks you the others what are you supposed to do? Retreating is a joke concept so you don't lose your McGuffin points (cubes) it doesn't account for actual game-play. Retreat exists exactly because the game is unbalanced.

This isn't poker, that argument is a COPIUM answer, there is no bluffing and there is no card counting, and even then Poker is more balanced than Marvel, also the only thing they have in common is that they use "cards".

The game can be made balanced, but then who will buy FOMO bundles and currency. The whole argument about making it a fair game goes out the window because MONEY is involved. SD doesn't care, they only care about they Revenue, also lets not start with the Doomer talk, Clash of clans was released in 2012, the game hasn't died it only keeps printing money, likewise Unless Disney revokes the SNAP license, Ben Brode will keep printing money and laughing at the Consumer player base.

[Lady Ming]

I disagree Koori. Balance is much better now that glenn jones has had time to implement things. When he came on cards like blob were already designed and ready to go. He had little to no input on them as they were completed designs when he came on. Look at the cards last month, this month, and for the next 2 months? Nothing looks broken, they all look like decent cards for the most part. The only one they have over done so far was Red Hulk, and he was brought much more in line with where he should be. And he was a much more tame card then say Ms Marvel, Loki, Elsa, Werewolf, Blob, or mobius were when they released before he came onboard to oversee design.

A ccg can never be truelly balanced though. Because of different power levels of cards, and rng. The only way the card game could be "fair" was if we all played with 1/1s with no text and all the locations were just "Ruins". But I think Glenn at least is trying to make things as balanced as he can as the design lead.

[Taweret]

making game imbalanced is forcing people to play "less decks", after thanos nerf no one plays him anymore so i assume the game is not "too balanced", in fact it's pretty imbalanced.

[Dr.Gloom]

Originally posted by Koori_89:

Chess is a balanced game that gives two people the chance to test their combination skills and cognitive thinking. You see a move a pattern and you account for possible moves and strategies. That is a balanced game.

Marvel snap is NOT a balanced game, and they make sure to enforce it, RNG on top of RNG:
You draw your deck backwards, and the opponent draws on curve = you lose.
You don't have a specific counter to X = you lose.
Locations favor your deck or outright deny you even playing = you lose.
The game flips a coin at the start and decides who wins or loses = you lose.

Skill accounts for about 35% of the game, and it revolves around 2-3 card mechanics which you eventually figure out and the ability to recognize the enemy strategy. When you have 3 counters to the opponents play in your deck and the game discards one and bottom decks you the others what are you supposed to do? Retreating is a joke concept so you don't lose your McGuffin points (cubes) it doesn't account for actual game-play. Retreat exists exactly because the game is unbalanced.

This isn't poker, that argument is a COPIUM answer, there is no bluffing and there is no card counting, and even then Poker is more balanced than Marvel, also the only thing they have in common is that they use "cards".

The game can be made balanced, but then who will buy FOMO bundles and currency. The whole argument about making it a fair game goes out the window because MONEY is involved. SD doesn't care, they only care about they Revenue, also lets not start with the Doomer talk, Clash of clans was released in 2012, the game hasn't died it only keeps printing money, likewise Unless Disney revokes the SNAP license, Ben Brode will keep printing money and laughing at the Consumer player base.

It is not meant to be a balanced game. It is CCG, and it is constantly evolving, unlike Chess and Poker. What you effectively described is every TCG/CCG in existence. By the way, in Chess, on a high level, if you go second, you are at a disadvantage. So even Chess is not perfectly balanced. There is bluffing in every card game. And the amount of "skill" that determines the outcome of the game is more significant than you think. Yes, RNG can screw you, but good players know when to retreat, and how to play around it. Otherwise, everyone would be a top player.

[Pcych0]

Don't be happy about the balance, now there will be a leech in each deck with a blink and you will change your mind immediately

[Zlehtnoba]

I believe a CCG is balanced if there are three or more decks at the top of the metagame. By this measure, SNAP is doing well, if a deck becomes dominant they are quick to change some cards to bring it in line.

As Lady said, in a CCG cards have different power levels, it's simply not feasible to have them all at a similar power level. That would take away from the collectible part of the game, which is a big drive for playing (and spending in) a CCG. So, a metagame with different decks at the top, which change from week to week, is a sign of a healthy, balanced CCG.

Of course, this also means that playing a CCG can be quite expensive, since the nature of the beast entices you to spend in order to obtain the new hotness.

[Koori_89]

Originally posted by Dr.Gloom:

By the way, in Chess, on a high level, if you go second, you are at a disadvantage. So even Chess is not perfectly balanced. There is bluffing in every card game. And the amount of "skill" that determines the outcome of the game is more significant than you think. Yes, RNG can screw you, but good players know when to retreat, and how to play around it. Otherwise, everyone would be a top player.

There are no written down hard rules, for who picks what color, normally its up to the event organization, but commonly one guy picks a pawn in each color and offers the opponent to pick a hand , not knowing which is which. Then they take turns. So there is an RNG, ad offence and defense play different patterns.

As for the bluffing, it doesn't exist in this game, you either keep quiet or you confidence snap. Bluff only works if the footing is equal and one side has a more favorable outcome, but that is applicable because they use one deck, in Snap that doesn't work, because like many have said cards are very different power levels and thus decks are the sum of those power levels, that's why some decks farm others like a hot knife on a butter stick.

As for the rest of it, sure I agree. BUT my point is that Snap is NOT a balanced game, and probably will never be. Not to mention SD want to make money, they don't want to create the next "chess" game that will live for 1000 years.