NERF ALIOTH

[TheLastLag]

This is a 3 position game. It destroys the game completely when you play it on the last turn, the card would be much more balanced if the game had 4 positions, but with only 3 this card is completely broken.

[TheLastLag]

Originally posted by Stranger:

Originally posted by TheLastLag:

The card itself is not a problem, understand. Even his original abilities seem very interesting to me. The problem is that you can play it on the last turn. Being a game where positions are very easy to fill, even the game itself locks down positions with various types of effects on them automatically. The card is mentally mediocre being playable in the 6th round, I'm sorry if this hurts you. It should return to its original effects at a lower cost and higher current power but can be played until the 5th round. The same thing that happened with Magik before. As I said, we only have 3 positions that the game automatically fills or blocks.

I haven't seen a single person use alioth after the nerf in the current season and even before that I rarely if ever saw him played, what's your pool, because it must be low if you're complaining about alioth post nerf.

Man, I have more than 1000 hours in the game, right now this season I am in position 89 and I have come across several many Alioht users, regardless of the type of deck or cards they use because it is a card that suits anyone.

[TheLastLag]

Originally posted by Zlehtnoba:

Originally posted by Zinkr7x:

Well no, I wrote that assuming the combo was braindead. You still actually need to weigh a lot of factors when running a combo deck, at least for most combo decks, am I getting my combo or how can I still get my combo, the opponent is running this and could counter the combo, what can I do? What are my alternate wins? What do I need to play to protect my combo from getting off, did I get that? Is my opponent going to tech it, etc.

It never actually becomes braindead at that point, because like 90% of decks, a combo deck has a gameplan, just their gameplan is play their 3 card combo specifically or whatever. It's about the same as any ol' deck, they're just sticking to their gameplan and adapting if possible as needed.

Suffice to say, you also need to actually learn the deck you copy, and it's just foolish to call copying a good deck lazy, and incredibly gatekeepy. Players will copy decks, learn their strengths and weaknesses, and then adjust to fit their style from there. That's just natural in a strategy game in general.

You're right of course, I misunderstood. But you did say that the brainpower comes in making, not in playing the deck.

Most combo decks do have a backup plan, and you need to know when to play which line. You need to have a good idea of what you are facing, and what your draws can be. I totally agree with you here.

But same goes for Alioth. He's never the only turn six play for a deck, again you need to prepare the field, and you need to decide early whether you will go for a turn six Alioth or not.

Well, it is also quite common for the game itself to pave the way for you to play the card on turn 6 and be successful.

[TheLastLag]

Originally posted by Zinkr7x:

Originally posted by Zlehtnoba:

You're right of course, I misunderstood. But you did say that the brainpower comes in making, not in playing the deck.

Most combo decks do have a backup plan, and you need to know when to play which line. You need to have a good idea of what you are facing, and what your draws can be. I totally agree with you here.

But same goes for Alioth. He's never the only turn six play for a deck, again you need to prepare the field, and you need to decide early whether you will go for a turn six Alioth or not.

Alioth is braindead in the sense that you really only question "do I win if I play alioth? If yes play Alioth" because a lot of decks have pretty telegraphed final turns. Alioth is a catch all tech usually in this scenario, and will often win without much thought on what is even going to be played, especially if you reveal first (and well, now only if you reveal first)

It is possible to flub Alioth if you don't play it in the correct lane; that was how I often won against Alioth pre-nerf, and I always looked at that and said "how did you lose that? I woulda won there if I was in your shoes" because I literally usually run combo. I don't know how people make such misplays.

In its respective season the letter was much easier to anticipate. Today the context is different plus the addition of the latest new cards makes it much more effective.

[TheLastLag]

Originally posted by Si:

Originally posted by Raisins:

You're calling "lazy", decks that you have to build up against "a" card you dump in the last turn if you have first turn?? Wtf are you talking about?? Go eat a big bag of thick, throbing "decks".

Build up?

Lmao play 3 cards in order and win. Why do users of these decks insist they take skill or brain power? You literally just play 3 cards in order, and then get mad that a big bad meanie card came along and stopped your instant win but you didnt want to switch to a deck that could avoid it because then you would actually have to think when playing your cards.

If you think that a combo is just about putting cards in order, you are quite limited in your concept of strategy, now I understand why you defend this card so much.

[TheLastLag]

Originally posted by Death Caster:

Originally posted by TheLastLag:

all types

Discard does not run Alioth
Destroy no longer does not run Alioth
Hawk does not run Alioth
Bounce does not run Alioth
PF-Nimrod does not run Alioth
Shenaut does not run Alioth
Loki does not run Alioth
Hela-Tribunal does not run Alioth
Surfer does not run Alioth
Decks that run Alioth now are Lockdown, Clog, and Ramp decks that don't run Blob, Shuri, and 5% of c3 decks. Thanos control now is swapping out Alioth for Blob.

Wow, how wrong you are, it adapts very well to all those types of decks.

[TheLastLag]

Originally posted by Zinkr7x:

Originally posted by Si:

Build up?

Lmao play 3 cards in order and win. Why do users of these decks insist they take skill or brain power? You literally just play 3 cards in order, and then get mad that a big bad meanie card came along and stopped your instant win but you didnt want to switch to a deck that could avoid it because then you would actually have to think when playing your cards.

Combo decks brain power requires you figuring out what your combo is, and then how to make it most consistent. The brain power is entirely in figuring out how to make the combo in the first place, even if it's braindead past that point, coming up with the solution of the deck in the first place is the brain power, which is why combo decks will never be lazy, nor braindead. (And it's not up for debate!) It's like saying someone who went to college and got a degree is lazy for doing less work nowadays, which is always laughable.

Likewise, Alioth is a pretty braindead card, you just slap it down turn 6 if you're ahead and bada bing, you usually win. Takes very little thought, just where do I play it and will it work, both are usually easy answers to figure out for most decks. It's pretty evident this is why you prefer the card as Alioth is often a catch all solution, especially against combo decks, as opposed to putting effort in to outplay your opponent otherwise. It's classic projection that you call the combo decks lazy.

Completely agree with you .

[SWENinja]

Wait til he get Hela or death/knull, Oh oh oh BEST! Loki..! xD

[Si]

Originally posted by Zinkr7x:

Originally posted by Si:

Build up?

Lmao play 3 cards in order and win. Why do users of these decks insist they take skill or brain power? You literally just play 3 cards in order, and then get mad that a big bad meanie card came along and stopped your instant win but you didnt want to switch to a deck that could avoid it because then you would actually have to think when playing your cards.

Combo decks brain power requires you figuring out what your combo is, and then how to make it most consistent. The brain power is entirely in figuring out how to make the combo in the first place, even if it's braindead past that point, coming up with the solution of the deck in the first place is the brain power, which is why combo decks will never be lazy, nor braindead. (And it's not up for debate!) It's like saying someone who went to college and got a degree is lazy for doing less work nowadays, which is always laughable.

Likewise, Alioth is a pretty braindead card, you just slap it down turn 6 if you're ahead and bada bing, you usually win. Takes very little thought, just where do I play it and will it work, both are usually easy answers to figure out for most decks. It's pretty evident this is why you prefer the card as Alioth is often a catch all solution, especially against combo decks, as opposed to putting effort in to outplay your opponent otherwise. It's classic projection that you call the combo decks lazy.

Comimg up with it?

Do you not realize the vast majority of players just rip decks fr the internet?

Everyone knows Shuri/Redskull/taskmaster and IW/Modok/Hela by now. No it does not take any kind of brain power to play these decks, we've all seen then a million times and know what cards go into them. You just try to play 3 cards in order and win.

Now add ramp Blob/Taskmaster to that too.

I'm not here trying to say Alioth is high iq play, I dont think much in Snap is, however you're trying to compare playing 3 card combos to getting a degree. Ridiculous. Many who play those decks when trying to reach infinite each month agree they are braindead.

[Zinkr7x]

Originally posted by Si:

Originally posted by Zinkr7x:

Combo decks brain power requires you figuring out what your combo is, and then how to make it most consistent. The brain power is entirely in figuring out how to make the combo in the first place, even if it's braindead past that point, coming up with the solution of the deck in the first place is the brain power, which is why combo decks will never be lazy, nor braindead. (And it's not up for debate!) It's like saying someone who went to college and got a degree is lazy for doing less work nowadays, which is always laughable.

Likewise, Alioth is a pretty braindead card, you just slap it down turn 6 if you're ahead and bada bing, you usually win. Takes very little thought, just where do I play it and will it work, both are usually easy answers to figure out for most decks. It's pretty evident this is why you prefer the card as Alioth is often a catch all solution, especially against combo decks, as opposed to putting effort in to outplay your opponent otherwise. It's classic projection that you call the combo decks lazy.

Comimg up with it?

Do you not realize the vast majority of players just rip decks fr the internet?

Everyone knows Shuri/Redskull/taskmaster and IW/Modok/Hela by now. No it does not take any kind of brain power to play these decks, we've all seen then a million times and know what cards go into them. You just try to play 3 cards in order and win.

Now add ramp Blob/Taskmaster to that too.

I'm not here trying to say Alioth is high iq play, I dont think much in Snap is, however you're trying to compare playing 3 card combos to getting a degree. Ridiculous. Many who play those decks when trying to reach infinite each month agree they are braindead.

Already basically explained all that here.

Originally posted by Zinkr7x:

Well no, I wrote that assuming the combo was braindead. You still actually need to weigh a lot of factors when running a combo deck, at least for most combo decks, am I getting my combo or how can I still get my combo, the opponent is running this and could counter the combo, what can I do? What are my alternate wins? What do I need to play to protect my combo from getting off, did I get that? Is my opponent going to tech it, etc.

It never actually becomes braindead at that point, because like 90% of decks, a combo deck has a gameplan, just their gameplan is play their 3 card combo specifically or whatever. It's about the same as any ol' deck, they're just sticking to their gameplan and adapting if possible as needed.

Suffice to say, you also need to actually learn the deck you copy, and it's just foolish to call copying a good deck lazy, and incredibly gatekeepy. Players will copy decks, learn their strengths and weaknesses, and then adjust to fit their style from there. That's just natural in a strategy game in general.

A good example btw is the Hela/Modok deck, which I don't really use that much, but of course, there are often Discard objectives. No one I've ever seen has ever slotted Echo into that deck, despite it being an obvious solution to Cosmo. So I took that strategy and adjusted it myself so I could not deal with Cosmo.

[Zinkr7x]

Originally posted by Stranger:

Originally posted by TheLastLag:

Man, I have more than 1000 hours in the game, right now this season I am in position 89 and I have come across several many Alioht users, regardless of the type of deck or cards they use because it is a card that suits anyone.

What's your pool, you didn't answer the question, you just dodged it.

I think it's plainly obvious he's above collection level 500 or whatever that you did not need to ask...

Unless you're saying you're below pool 3 yourself and thus that's why you have not seen many Alioths but then I don't know what you're really adding to the conversation here?

[Zinkr7x]

Originally posted by Death Caster:

Originally posted by TheLastLag:

Wow, how wrong you are, it adapts very well to all those types of decks.

it doesn't not after his nerf, if someone uses it they will carry a dead card which is useless in the deck.

No lol. Alioth is the same card and is a tech card, he still fits very well into all those decks. He literally does the same thing he usually did, just now they actually made a scenario he does not work in.
His nerf made him rightfully less good, hopefully enough that everyone does not feel the need to run him in every single deck ever.

[Si]

Originally posted by Zinkr7x:

Originally posted by Si:

Comimg up with it?

Do you not realize the vast majority of players just rip decks fr the internet?

Everyone knows Shuri/Redskull/taskmaster and IW/Modok/Hela by now. No it does not take any kind of brain power to play these decks, we've all seen then a million times and know what cards go into them. You just try to play 3 cards in order and win.

Now add ramp Blob/Taskmaster to that too.

I'm not here trying to say Alioth is high iq play, I dont think much in Snap is, however you're trying to compare playing 3 card combos to getting a degree. Ridiculous. Many who play those decks when trying to reach infinite each month agree they are braindead.

Already basically explained all that here.

Originally posted by Zinkr7x:

Well no, I wrote that assuming the combo was braindead. You still actually need to weigh a lot of factors when running a combo deck, at least for most combo decks, am I getting my combo or how can I still get my combo, the opponent is running this and could counter the combo, what can I do? What are my alternate wins? What do I need to play to protect my combo from getting off, did I get that? Is my opponent going to tech it, etc.

It never actually becomes braindead at that point, because like 90% of decks, a combo deck has a gameplan, just their gameplan is play their 3 card combo specifically or whatever. It's about the same as any ol' deck, they're just sticking to their gameplan and adapting if possible as needed.

Suffice to say, you also need to actually learn the deck you copy, and it's just foolish to call copying a good deck lazy, and incredibly gatekeepy. Players will copy decks, learn their strengths and weaknesses, and then adjust to fit their style from there. That's just natural in a strategy game in general.

A good example btw is the Hela/Modok deck, which I don't really use that much, but of course, there are often Discard objectives. No one I've ever seen has ever slotted Echo into that deck, despite it being an obvious solution to Cosmo. So I took that strategy and adjusted it myself so I could not deal with Cosmo.

1 person out of 100,000. The majority just know they need to play IW/Modok/Hela, and that you throw down Magic and Crystal to help achieve that. They dont need to think they just need to put Modok and Hela behind IW as they have seen thousands of other players do. Monkey see, monkey do.

Cosmo is a pretty unreliable counter imo since even if you put it down on turn 5 with no warning....oh it just so happens they were doing IronMan/Trib/Onslaught that turn (bots no doubt). I prefer Alioth to just clean house on the lane and take care of both.

[Zinkr7x]

Originally posted by Si:

. I prefer Alioth to just clean house on the lane and take care of both.

Hey! You understand why Alioth is a problem card lol. Effortless tech.

Yea I mean what I said still stands, you didn't really hit anything you just said "monkey see monkey do"

You can also use Rogue to counter the strategy, that's my favorite one. Or Enchantress. And you should never mention bots again, like I had a laughing fit over the "must have been bots that switched to Onslaught/Tribunal" as opposed to you just guessing wrong what they had behind IW. Of course it's anything but your own fault, couldn't have been you!

[Zinkr7x]

Originally posted by Death Caster:

Originally posted by Zinkr7x:

No lol. Alioth is the same card and is a tech card, he still fits very well into all those decks. He literally does the same thing he usually did, just now they actually made a scenario he does not work in.
His nerf made him rightfully less good, hopefully enough that everyone does not feel the need to run him in every single deck ever.

hmm, then make sense how Alioth would be great in discard. Or Hela tribunal, or Surfer or Shenaut?
Even Loki does not run Alioth coz of WWBN and mirrors. And I have seen top performing Hawk and bounce decks none of them runs Alioth.
How he fits in all those decks?
and if he does then why Hela, She naut, Loki, bounce, discard do not run him now or before his nerf? Explain me.

It's a tech card. it can fit into most decks, and it covers a lot of tech scenarios, which is why it was so busted pre-nerf. Just because you see decks without it doesn't mean it's not runnable in those decks nor does it not work for those decks, To be fair, it is sometimes less effective in some decks, like Loki for example, but still could be teched in because it's a tech card.

However, I do apologize, as I guess I missed Hela/Tribunal there. That variant of discard that's solely focused on the combo probably cannot make any effective usage of Alioth

[Tray]

Originally posted by Zinkr7x:

Originally posted by Death Caster:

it doesn't not after his nerf, if someone uses it they will carry a dead card which is useless in the deck.

No lol. Alioth is the same card and is a tech card, he still fits very well into all those decks. He literally does the same thing he usually did, just now they actually made a scenario he does not work in.
His nerf made him rightfully less good, hopefully enough that everyone does not feel the need to run him in every single deck ever.

It's really clear you have a hate boner for Alioth but trying to say it fits well into decks that never have priority on the final turn is just stupid.