Tote is unplayable/fun?

[immorom]

I haven't finished a single run with Tote even once
At the first glance, she doesn't have huge single-target nor "splash" damage
Yes, maybe there is a couple items that makes her playable (tho I haven't discovered a single one), but this will feel so much worse than literally every other character, which have dozens of builds and even more ways to play
Most of guides straight tell you: try to negotiate your reliance on carving as much as you can and try to build around regular items
Maybe tossing should be free, maybe carving cycling should be quicker and, perhaps, you should be theoretically able to make multiple tosses in one turn – I don't know, but I filled the feedback form somewhere n the past, but it feels like nothing changed. Do people really enjoying playing this character? How?

[Murasa]

Having gotten the golden Tote Statue recently, the only build that remotely worked for me that could deal with Hard Mode 4/5's scaling was... by not playing Tote's game at all. Meaning taking the "item set" option at the start for non-carving Mossy Mace + 4 Acorn Caps, then slowly transitioning to a full dodge sap build: a deck with 5 Vine Saps and nothing else, unless I get card draw like Jar Carving (requires Green/Blue Candle as well) and/or the Pot of Plenty accessory, then praying for energy accessories and relics since you can't reliably scale damage with Tote, so energy stacking is the only way to beat Hard Mode scaling. My HM4/5 runs both lucked out hard with getting Violet Energy and the relic that gives 2 energy but disabled when you use Toss, except with a sap build you're never using Toss so it works out.

I've found success on Hard Mode 2 with the Toss build exactly once but that's because I managed to get the 2 specific relics that made it work + Heart of Forest, but even that was incredibly iffy and barely managed to beat the Area 3 boss.

[SalemsCat]

I come here after finishing 'Throw a book at them' to stage 3. You can discard carvings for free if you reload the game. Not exactly sure how 'legal' this is but makes it less annoying. I'd also recommend sticking to one build to the end or try to at least. I went for full spiked shields and only needed 7 spaces for the carvings to win. Is it Rng? Yes, the luck to find the carving I wanted and the blacksmiths but in return I erased the Rng while in combat, since it was always the same carvings, reliable block and increasing spikes per turn besides the tossing dmg. The same could be said about saps builds, consumables or the mace. Is Tote fun? I had more fun doing all her quest than CR-8 microbuild to stage 3 (That thing scares me) but she's hard to play and unfair at times. Great character design though, looks cute. Hopefully she's slightly reworked in the near future.

[maDEMOman]

tote is definately the least fun >_>
the character is Draw RNG on top of Item drop RNG.

[Fawxkitteh]

She's pretty garbage.
Everyone else gets rewarded for collecting stuff, she gets punished.
It took me like 6 attempts to finally win one...on EASY.
I've played plenty of deck builders, it's not a lack of experience in the slightest.

Her stuff just doesn't combo well together.
Sap can be good with draw...and combo with nothing else. Once you decide to grab one you better grab nothing else but carving draw.
There's just never a point where I feel absolutely broken with her.

With all of the other characters you can do all kinds of crazy things, and adapt on the fly around a single interesting item.
You just can't with Tote.
She needs more stuff to spend excess energy on, or more ways to draw carvings.
I seriously had a run where I was floating 11 energy, just waiting for any of the weapons that cost energy to use, and never found a single one.
More importantly, her stuff needs to interact with her other stuff a lot more to add variety.

[Aeralis]

It really is ridiculous that there are SO MANY totems just for adding mana to your network and basically no totems to actually use that mana. Like, mana stones are basically the only item you can actually collect, we don't need this much mana generation for the maybe one or two magic totems you might find in a run.

[Fingeris]

Tote seems to get weaker the further you progress, which is annoying as hell.

[Duodecimus]

You have to apply classic deck-builder strats to her, rather than inventory hoarding.

My Tote runs are usually wins now, because I know exactly what items give reliable defense(there are two shields that can give 20def per energy), and I aim to have a deck that ends up with ~1 hand of drawable carvings after all my other stuff gets played.

[Aeralis]

Ok, but like... At that point how is that actually any different than just having a backpack full of items? Every time the Tote problem gets discussed the answer is always either "just minimize your deck so you reliably get all your stuff every turn" or "lol mossy mace" and both of those solutions are just you completely ignoring the entire totem drawing mechanic. And the people that say "well that works for me and I'm having great success" seem to not be acknowledging that that's exactly the problem.

[LHGreen]

Originally posted by Duodecimus:

You have to apply classic deck-builder strats to her, rather than inventory hoarding.

My Tote runs are usually wins now, because I know exactly what items give reliable defense(there are two shields that can give 20def per energy), and I aim to have a deck that ends up with ~1 hand of drawable carvings after all my other stuff gets played.

Those aren't "classic deck-builder strats", though. That's "classic CCG, terrible deck-builder strats", derived from "poorly-executed roguelike strats". Having a ton of stuff that's complete ♥♥♥♥ and only a few things that are any good or are actually viable might be excellent CCG design, but it's terrible single-player game design. Roguelikes where there's A: several possible builds and many of them seem pretty good, but in reality only a few have enough power to get you through to the end, so you have to try to force those builds with rng fighting you the whole time, or B: where you have to luck into some game-breaking overpowered item, are by definition poorly made, poorly balanced, and poorly thought-out. That's just a ♥♥♥♥-up when devs do that, but for some reason a few people have been conditioned to think that's okay or somehow makes the game more difficult or challenging. It doesn't, it just makes the game more tedious and more of a "trained monkey" exercise. There needs to be balance as well as genuine player agency, so that the game isn't just a slog. Tote doesn't have that, anymore.

And anyway, this game is clearly ALL ABOUT inventory hoarding. That's the whole point. You hoard items, but also have to manage what you hoard carefully. And yet Tote doesn't have that kind of game play, currently. She's all breaks and no gas. As she is now, she's doesn't fit into or work with any other aspect of the game, and that discordance is making her terrible.

Originally posted by Aeralis:

the people that say "well that works for me and I'm having great success" seem to not be acknowledging that that's exactly the problem.

Exactly this. And it's exactly what most others here have pointed out, too. Supposedly, Tote's gonna be getting yet another rework, but given the last one, it may just make her worse.

[Duodecimus]

I dunno if I really believe that tote has fewer strats than the other characters.

synergy wise, tote has
saps
sibling items
hoarding manastones
archery
discarded items
toss
consumables

The main difference between her and the other characters is how little her synergies work together.
Like, every other character can just stack up armor items and gems and then hold onto the wooden sword to floor 6, and hopefully you can land a legendary that will by itself carry you the rest of the way.

Tote needs to pick a synergy by floor three and stick to it. Saps are useless unless you can draw three of them. if you can't get enough other consumables to keep the mushroom items alive then they're gone for combat. If your weapon doesn't auto discard then you lose all of your per turn effects when you toss your bag.
Trying to have a random mix will get you killed eventually from unbalanced hands.
And pushing for a synergy is also just not safe, you might just not get the item. The rest of the crew can muddle on with poor item luck, but tote's default state is slowly bleeding out from unlucky card draw.

One of the things she really needs is a gem equivalent. Some items she can pickup and keep in her bag that will just help, no matter what build you're aiming for.
Also a synergy type of banishment, very strong carvings that banish themselves or other cravings until end of combat, so you can grab stuff just for banishment fodder.
That or like, a lot more actual consumables. Maybe like, a set of grenades that you can pull the pin on and have them apply on next toss. Items to save bad turns sometimes.

[LHGreen]

Originally posted by Duodecimus:

I dunno if I really believe that tote has fewer strats than the other characters.

synergy wise, tote has
saps
sibling items
hoarding manastones
archery
discarded items
toss
consumables

So, tell me, how many of those are actually good? Like, as good as or better than what the other characters have? How many will beat the game, or survive in Endless mode loops? In contrast, extra synergies inherently give the others extra strats, because they can mix them.

That's not a lot of strategies, btw. All the others have more strats, and WAY more tactics.

Originally posted by Duodecimus:

The main difference between her and the other characters is how little her synergies work together.

No duh! That's exactly the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ problem that's being pointed out! The other characters have synergies (albeit to a much lesser extent than other, similar games, and less than there should be) that work with and don't necessarily get in the way of each other. They can pivot, they can add to, and they can build upon, without sacrificing everything they already have.

Originally posted by Duodecimus:

Like, every other character can just stack up armor items and gems and then hold onto the wooden sword to floor 6, and hopefully you can land a legendary that will by itself carry you the rest of the way.

A. That's not necessary. You can do great with just common and uncommon items.
B. Several uncommon items are apparently better than many rares or legendaries, anyway.
C. I just said relying on overpowered items to carry you is a terrible mechanic, and if you find yourself having to do that, it's a sign that either the game is poorly made or the player sucks at it. See, this is why we can't have nice things. Don't play that way. It makes us sad, and it encourages the devs to lean into that ♥♥♥♥ and make the game worse. It's just plain wrong.

Originally posted by Duodecimus:

Tote needs to pick a synergy by floor three and stick to it. Saps are useless unless you can draw three of them. if you can't get enough other consumables to keep the mushroom items alive then they're gone for combat. If your weapon doesn't auto discard then you lose all of your per turn effects when you toss your bag.

Which, again, is completely at odds with practically every other aspect of this game, and in terms of game play progression, is extremely poor design. The fact that it's required is what makes her so limited, and so awful, to play as. She's basically only half-finished.

Originally posted by Duodecimus:

One of the things she really needs is a gem equivalent. Some items she can pickup and keep in her bag that will just help, no matter what build you're aiming for.
Also a synergy type of banishment, very strong carvings that banish themselves or other cravings until end of combat, so you can grab stuff just for banishment fodder.
That or like, a lot more actual consumables. Maybe like, a set of grenades that you can pull the pin on and have them apply on next toss. Items to save bad turns sometimes.

You should look up how Tote used to work, back when she was fun. Check out game play videos of her from around a year ago, compare that to now, and yourself ask why the hell the devs felt the need to fix what wasn't broke. What she needs is an overhaul, not a band-aid.

[Talon Rose]

I hate her. I *utterly* despise her.
Slow, boring, extremely RNG dependent.
Look. I'm doing just '1 floor before boss" challenges right now.
I beat the first one somewhat okay, but went down to 21 HP (Love having to attack the rude rooster who punishes it!) .

Okay, spent 4 to heal to 56.
FIRST FIGHT.
20 hitting armor bear guy, and the next turn the dude behind him was going to hit me for 30. It's the crossbow rabbits you can knock out of it..*if* you get enough attack cards that turn. And I didn't :-D.

Not a fan.

Why is Tote utter crap?

1)Still 3 energy despite the below
2)Reliance on RNG for *draws* as well as *drops* much more than any other character.
3)Clearing cluttered inventory relies on discarding\tossing, which bizarrely costs 1 energy point. If they wanted to ape STS so badly, this action should be free once per turn, because by it not auto-clearing each turn, it's already WORSE than STS.
4)Tote has *next to zero* passive armor generation. Zero. You have, what, 2X9 or 2X12 armor *if you are lucky* and pick them, at 1 energy each, meaning you are not attacking and enemies poison you or kill you faster the longer they are alive. Bad.
5)There is a fairly hard limit of 5 draws per turn *unless* you have this one axe *unless* you have armor you need to not die, in which case it won't work - so EVEN If you go free stuff, it's generally \ genuinely brutally difficult to get anything done.


Tote is bad. Unfun. She sucks. I *hate* her.
The most fun I had with her was a "Magic archery" challenge. eliminated the quiver summoning arrows, got 2-3 of the same ones you start with, picked up some armor\blockers and one healing item and I coasted through by making the backpack a long arrow airfield lol. 2X31 or something per energy point.

That's it. Pochette is a bit awkward to get going \learn but I understand and respect her whole deal. Tote needs a desperate and speedy fix because she is super close to literally being unusable.

Edit : Compare regular character : Oh hey, I have 20-50 passive armor \ turn so I can

A)Focus on attacking (more dmg)
B)NOT GET KILLED SO F*CKING QUICKLY
C)Have to heal less \ less often if it does slip through (poison, generally).

It's bizarre that the frail but "strong" mage has the most hp in the game. Because she needs it. Because she's garbage. This entire gimmick the devs are going for needs to be torn out by the roots and re-thought. I'm sorry, I really don't see how you can salvage this hot mess *and* make her fun if you insist on aping STS for no reason.

Like.
If I miraculously get to area 3, my choices are : Get fire\poison stacked to f*ck by high damage aggressive enemies *or* tanky slow mostly harmless (but also some poison) enemies and take 4X as long but maybe survive because they spam field blocking stuff instead of actual attacks.

With the exception of the techno-gerbils or whatever they are that alternate between 1-3 rage and 2 hits of X damage...and can come in groups of SIX.
If you do not immediately kill one, you are eating 3-9 rage and six attacks of at least 6 X2 damage. Each. Please tell me how naked dumb bad character with zero passive armor generation is meant to cope with this *in addition* to relying on finding the correct drop, then having it come up at the correct time THEN having the space and energy and maybe situation (X present or Y not present, etc) to use it...and still costing energy.

Just no. Flat no. Forever.

@Fingeris : It's not that she "gets weaker" the further you get. She *is* weak. She is *pathetic*. And the more you go, you go from 1-3 "12-30" hp enemies to ...6X60, or X 110 or whatever. She *can not*reliably output enough damage to deal with stuff, *while* not being able to reliably defend. It's a game of blasted attrition. And for bonus points, I think the healing items are really rare with her too...cuz why not. That makes sense...>.>;.

[Isisius]

Lol interesting to see how divided people are on Tote.
I love playing her. But as has been seen elsewhere you do need to change how you play. You need to very carefully think about every single carving you add.
I havent had any issues finishing anything on her, although i will admit i have only died twice in the entire 50+ hours ive played, and once was on her.

Basically, if you are good at deckbuilders, tote will be fairly easy. If you are trying to play her like any of the others, she will be very hard until you shift gears mentally.

I actually love how different every character plays. Makes it feel so fresh each time you do a run.

I found with Tote ive smashed it by playing an archery deck, by playing a sap deck, and by playing a deck which had hatchets and no armour (deck went infinite cause i got a carving that lets you refresh items to use them again, and hatchets draw carvings).

I do actually wish this game had difficulty settings, i think if youve played a lot of these kind of games it becomes very hard to lose.
And i STILL dont know how to unlock the 4th character, which is annoying. Ive gotten robot, bird and frog.
I think difficultly of playing them, from easiest to hardest is Mouse -> Bird -> Frog -> Robot.
I think in terms of Strongest to Weakest it goes Bird -> Frog -> Robot -> Mouse.

[LHGreen]

Originally posted by Talon Rose:

stuff

She used to be better. That's the worst part. The carvings used to be an extra gimmick, not her WHOLE gimmick. She got most of the same items that the rest of the characters did.

Originally posted by Isisius:

I think in terms of Strongest to Weakest it goes Bird -> Frog -> Robot -> Mouse.

Your assessment skills need a ton of work, then. CR-8 is, and always has been, brokenly OP.

Originally posted by Isisius:

Basically, if you are good at deckbuilders, tote will be fairly easy.

No, if you're good at CCGs, Tote is fairly easy. If you're good at roguelike deckbuilders, which is, once again, what this game is, you'll find yourself having to play Tote the wrong way.

Anyway, as I said to everyone else, look up the different ways Tote USED to work.

[Duodecimus]

Backpack hero is a rougelike, but it is not a deckbuilder.

I'm not sure why you're saying it, is, outside Tote. Deck builder implies a deck that you randomly draw from. The other characters are more like a turn based rpg crossed with diablo inventory management