[Feedback] Lethal Company Rough-Cut Critique ; The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly

[tons0phun]

Greetings!

I play lots of indie games and this is a review that I do when I see a game I think is worth taking my time to contribute feedback to. Naturally it's all opinion, so take and discard what you will, and for other players like me I'm not here to do back-forth of opinions on my suggestions. This is all for Mr.Zeekerss to turn this lightning-in-a-bottle into something beyond a Flavor of the Month.

The game is enormous fun, and in just 3 weeks of owning it, I've already sunk in 100 hours. While there is room for improvement, there are some aspects you may need to change little to leaving untouched to keep the games charm and feel.
Here we go!

The Good

• The pace of the game is consistent. This is a subtle thing that can be missed and cause games to have "that part" that players don't like or avoid altogether. The biggest thing I sense when playing this game is the consistency of each phase of the game, going through it. It's also great that the game is easy to pick up and easy to put down for sessions, easy to jump in and out of.
  
  
• Interacting with items is a blast! Being able to pull the little handle on the cash register, airhorns for obvious reasons, laser pointer. The jetpack steering is simply amazing.
  
  
• Proximity chat. The muffling of the voice by the sand flea. The distortion of the horns down the corridors. The blind hounds detecting VOIP. It's effect can't be understated, and like many I'm hopeful to see more such as monsters mimicking voices, and more voice-distortion effects. You've got the Helium effect with the TZP, would be fun to see something do a hexafluoride effect for deep voices.
  
  
• The horrors of being eaten. The Forest Guardians and Jester terrify me the most for the fact they make your body and possessions disappear.
  
  
• The rendering/filtering effect is nice, and the lighting effects created as day moves from day through dusk to night, steam in the corridors, the fireplace mantle flickering against dark book cases, has firmly established a recognizable visual style that's quite comical while also suspenseful when caught between the light and dark.
  
  
• The sense of dread being caught between failing quota and encountering monsters is superb.
  
  
• Look forward to seeing what the other Number keys get for emojis, dancing with team-mates is instant team building, and being able to silently point is both useful and in many ways comical.

The Bad

• While the pace of the game is consistent, it ultimately feels a little short. Which, is understandable. It's still an early-development game, not yet matured, there hasn't been time to make a volume of content beyond what's currently there. Going forward, if you were to imagine the progression of the games as steps and plateaus, there will need to be many more steps, but the plateaus slightly longer than they are now but not by too much.
  
  
• Being kicked from a game is actually just a ban. Please implement distinct kick/ban actions, or at the least properly label it as "BAN" and not Kick.
  
  
• Poor control of purchasing and landing for Host. Given that save file is carried by the Host of the game, they ought to have more control over the purchasing and landing. In most cases Hosts are actually trying to develop save files into successful runs, and it's frustrating that mid-game somebody can go to the console and blow $1000 on boomboxes. It's funny with friends but it's an absolute oversight to the normal (statistically normal) experience people will have playing with Randos. It could perhaps be a toggle-option that's available when starting a new run, or perhaps can be enabled/disabled mid-game. And no, the solution to this is not "Just play with friends" The solution is to fix this so that anybody can play with anybody else, and not have to worry about their game progress being trolled this severely. I get it that in some cases the chaos of no-control can be fun and welcome, but I think by default there should be a toggle-option for Host control.
  
  
• Items clipping/falling through terrain and walls, or outright disappearing, is really lame. Especially with the terrain crevices on Offense trying to get an extension ladder deployed to the fire escape.
  
  
• None of the lethal devices in the facilities, such as landmines or turrets, harm creatures. I strongly argue this should not be the case, and that equipment should kill indiscriminately. Not only because the simple logic that it should, but also because if you reward players with being able to get more loot-time by taking dumb-risks in an attempt to kill very dangerous monsters: you'll have more great times of players getting themselves killed taking dumb risks attempting to kite monsters into landmines and turrets. Plus, it is arguably the most iconic trope of horror: to combat monsters by leading them into traps and hazards which are dangerous to the characters themselves. It represents the conquering of fear! At least that's the pep-talk I'll give to my intern before they try to kite the Coilhead onto a landmine!

The Ugly

• Your Discord community needs to take back-seat in priority/voice to your Steam community. Your Discord community is important, and should be your source for moral support. But I've taken a peek in there and instantly observe a clique community of social politics that shuns new players and literally makes suggestions to ban new discord members from making game suggestions. It's forwardly close-minded, selfish, and treating your game like it is theirs. I've seen this stifle and even kill many an indie game.
  
  I'm glad they got you here. I'm sure many are friends and family-by-choice that've been with you on your climb here so far. And that's what they are. What they are not, is your customers. Your market-place. They are friends, not business partners. And the reality is that you're now stepping into a much bigger ocean of opportunities than any of them can give you advice to guide by. You need to be looking to other successful indie games on Steam, and looking at how they manage their Steam forums and workshops, maybe even reach out to them for advice. The devs of The Forest are a good example of Steam forum management done right. And as Project Zomboid did with their recent revival and success, I highly encourage you to financially plan your earnings to contract a small dev-team to help you make improvements faster, realize the roadmaps more effectively, and possibly even to multiple platforms. You have that opportunity here. Maybe even reach out directly to Steam and Gaben for advice, I bet right now you of all people could get an audience, and hear what Valve has observed (with data!) about indie games finding their way.
  
  Steam is your market. Steam is where you should be engaging most for feedback. Steam is where you should be making announcements and sharing roadmaps. Steam is why your game is now an internet-sensation flavor-of-the-month, Steam is how people are sharing the experience of Lethal Company together, and Steam is how you are making that money. Steam is where the game is sold, and Steam is where it can continue to grow and expand. Your Discord will always be there for ideas, feedback, moral support, critique. But between Steam::Discord, the division of influence on development should be 80::20.
  
  
• Players can't join lobby/game-slots of disconnected players. This needs to be priority zero to fix above all other activities. Basic functionality of the game's connectivity is in obligation, not a feature. Players need to be able to join games with available player slots while the ship is in orbit, after somebody has disconnected. It completely disrupts the game to have to quit and re-host every time I need a 4th person back in the mix after somebody disconnects because they got themselves killed fast and tilt-quit.
  
  
• Scrap vanishing when loading a save file. This is another non-negotiable priority-zero fix. It's straight up disappointing that an oversight like this is left in the game focused on collecting that scrap to have fun and to survive. I put in a lot of my real time, effort, nerve, to get some scrap, and some as well can be for specific decor I'm trying to adorn the ship with. My heart genuinely sinks when I see something like multiple bee hives, aparatus, or gold bars just vanish for no good reason.

Suggestions

• This is likely because the game is new, and needs time to develop volume of content, but the experience could be spread out a little more, while still being consistent (steps & plateaus analog). I get the intent of the game is for players to be treated brutally by this Lethal Company, but in the long run of things like additional moons, items, monsters, activities, the "number of steps" to end-game is somewhat short. The game's progression will ultimately need more "steps" and slightly longer plateaus between them. More time to play with items. Opportunities to experience higher quotas. A little more forgiveness in early-mid game for full-party wipes, but beyond that no forgiveness. The cycle of Early-to-End game will need to have more tiers, but keeping the duration of each tier/step/plateau tight will help maintain that consistent intensity that keeps the game engaging and addictive.
  
  
• In the long haul of things you should keep the hand-tailored moons, but ultimately should be aiming for semi or fully-procedural outdoor envirnoments as well. Perhaps a set of moons which are outdoor procedural.
  
  
• "Environment effects" like rainy weather causing more sinkholes is **amazing**, and any other elements of that synergy you can conceive would be good to include.
  
  
• More moons, specifically io and Europa, as tier V Moons. I skipped Tier IV entirely, those can be other hand-craft moons, Tier-V would be the toughest, procedural inside-and-out.
  Europa would have facilities under the ice you take a surface lift to get down to not unlike the cult-classic movie "Deep Blue Sea", and would be an underwater facility. Instead of steam-valve leaks, the facility would have water-valve leaks (e.g. flooding inside the building instead of outside). The facility has pumps and auto-hatches to help, but only if the power is on. Europa's surface would have frozen-lakes with hazardous thin-spots, and perhaps aquatic beasts indoors and outdoors (opportunities for thalassophobia). Vibes of Sphere, Leviathan, The Abyss, 20000 Leagues, etc.
  Io would be a moon with terrain that should be navigated using Jetpacks. Dangerous steam and magma vents+pools everywhere, terrain undulating by as much as 30m (terrain waves), potentially in and out from magma pools. But: the amount of loot would be ludicrous, essentially the "Golden Moon", if you can haul it out alive.
  Here's a neat concept render of Io I found with a quick Google search: https://dissolve.com/video/Surface-rights-managed-stock-video-footage/002-D30-33-278
  Industrial facility with lots of dangerous moving conveyors, presses, gears, hot magma periodically flowing through channels and pouring from overhead buckets. A massive fiery industrial death trap.
  
  
• Item throwing. Friends throwing things to each other. At each other's heads. At bracken's face. Off a cliff. Into the air. Juggling? Players should be able to grab and throw anything, albeit with different degrees of difficulty depending on the weight and shape. And you know what that means : falling/thrown items should also have potential to do damage. Could get into the ship by dropping your engine on the head of a blind hound to K.O. it. Or crush your friends. Could then incorporate it into creature behaviors too, maybe giants will try to throw beehives into the ship if it finds the players are hiding there.
  
  
• More item interactions. Consider making it so the number-pad can be used for the Rubix cube, maybe you can do something with a solved one. I'd suggest these additions: maracas, unicycle (steered like jetpack by leaning, LMB forward, RMB back, G dismount), toy bow tied to arrow with suction cup (small item grabbing), fishing rod (heavier item grabbing), crayons/markers/spraypaint (furniture whiteboard+markers!), "polaroid" camera, fire extinguisher (good for blob killing, coilhead smokescreen, tomfoolery), slide whistle and trombone (change pitch by up/down aim). An item like repelling rope would open up opportunities for level complexity. A dartboard and darts, or pool table and balls, would be fun game-in-game meta. Would be nice to see some specific item+creature interactions; I thought for sure I could bribe the little girl for just a little more looting time with the lollipop, like I could the hoarding bug with a key!
  
  
• More "intert" creature behaviors and creature:creature interactions. It's neat to see spiders in the act of setting up their webs, Hoarding Bugs adorning their dead-end with scrap, and generally "in the act" of being themselves as if players weren't present. It makes the environment feel more believable, like the monsters really live here with or without the players, and it'd be nice to see more of these "creature charms". In general as well, it'd be interesting to see some level of interaction between creatures. Maybe two hounds diving at the same player, getting into a scrap with each other over that morsel of food. Blind dogs hiding from and evading earth leviathan, leviathans trying to eat them as well as players. Brackens and Coilheads getting locked into a stare. Hoarding Bugs stealing scrap from each other and fighting over scrap, or conversely making nests. Thumpers, Spiders, and Hydrogeres hunting down Hoarding Bugs for food. Behaviors built firstly with intent to give the environment some sense of life, which may or may not have consideration for effect on the player.
  
  
• Mid-late game, there should be expensive equipment you can take to salvage and scrap mines and turrets. Like a lock-picker it would take a lot of time and be inconvenient to bring, and would also have significant risks, but significant reward for that stage of the game. If beyond that you could redeploy mines or turrets, it would make the game become incredibly strategic both as an FPS and with cost-benefit aspect of logistics and equipment. And just imagine scenarios: some crew hording a truckload of landmines only to accidentally deploy one inside the ship. Somebody deploys a sentry because they saw a bracken, but forgets to tell the team. Giving an undeployed mine to a Hoarding Bug, who will go set it down and deploy it somewhere random: just to spice things up.
  
  
• The Company. It's a great caricature so far, and could do to be more company like. I would like to present you some source material. I work in Aerospace, and must adhere to insane volumes of company procedures, as aeronautic products often involve the safety of humans, both customers and employees (notice the company language here lol). Aerospace follows the "AS9100 Standard", and some fine minds out there wrote a parody of the AS9100 Aerospace Standard called "DumbAS9100". Here is a link to the DumbAS9100: https://www.oxebridge.com/downloads/DumbAS9100_v0.pdf
  Please consider expanding the employee manual in the ship, to actually be something on the order of 150 pages. The first 5-10 page can be legitimate tutorial and tips things. From there it can be all kinds of things, gradually built-up over time.
  
  
• The company language could be a *little* more sterile and heartless. Thinking specifically to the grade-card, instead of "DECEASED" and "MISSING", it should be something comparable to "Overcome by Events" and "Absent Without Leave". Or alternatively, it could be interesting if for each way of dying, come up with 2-3 "Cause-codes" that get listed on the grade. More blame shifted on the employee!
  
  
• Make the blob (Hydrogere) creature scarier like the 80s movie Blob. It'd get bigger and faster for *any creature* it consumes (creatures with low Sigurd-score, and humans). Drop on people from the ceiling and dissolve organic matter, empty suits left behind. Would be creepy if you could make it smoothly flow and match surface contours, seep around doorframes and ooze into a room.
  
  
• Spiders should be a little more ambushy, and not kill so quickly. It'd be neat if they played FOV-games like Bracken, and tried to ambush players with traps (deliberately web paths at an intersection, and then hide in ambush on a nearby un-webbed path the player would more likely choose; try to push players into webbed paths/corners). On the first attack paralyze+web+abduct, and if a few minutes come by with no disturbances, om-nom the webbed fellow. They have to sit there, wrapped up, blinded, muffled, waiting a moment for either rescue, or the spider. It'd be fun to have rescue scenarios, and also carry around your mummified friends saying muffled stuff lol. Either shovel or sunlight destroys the cocoon.
  
  
• Swarming creatures would be nice to see. Things like swarms of spiders, beetles, nanomachines, leeches/worms, plant tendrils, creepy crawlers on all surfaces that cover players and make them freak out, some lethal some not.
  
  
• An option for comical levels of dismemberment would be fun.
  
  
• If there shall be but only one truly lethal weapon the players can use in this game: it shall be the Flamethrower. Naturally, accompanied with the fire extinguisher.

The End!

Thanks if you've read this far! I may come around to add/edit but, I think this'll be it for the most part. If you're a fellow player, I highly encourage giving feedback to the devs in a constructive manner, to help them know what others experience when playing.

Be nice to your fellow devs and players out there, have fun, and thank you Mr.Dev for bringing this fun to us all. I hope you continue to find success, and enjoy celebrating your very new year ahead.

[MONSTERDROID]

I majorly agree with the immersive suggestions like having enemies be affected by their surroundings too.

I always thought it was dumb & it takes me out of the experience seeing the enemies walk over mines & through turrets unaffected, add to that the way that creatures seem unaffected by weather & have no interactions with eachother.

It doesn't need to be anything super in depth I just want to be able to lure enemies to traps or remove a snare flea with a turret.

& an underwater facility that you have to lower into sounds really cool too.

[Sumper]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBwcWcSHZq8

[Piña]

"Gaints could throw a beehive at the ship." Brother, i already have an idiot bringing beehives in the team i don't need the big fella to help him.

[MONSTERDROID]

Цитата допису Piña:

"Gaints could throw a beehive at the ship." Brother, i already have an idiot bringing beehives in the team i don't need the big fella to help him.

Beehives pay really well though, it is like 100 per a hive.

[Noba]

Based

[jasonelite44]

Is there any fix to the game constantly disconnecting yet? I can't even get through one game with my friends. Tried everything. Constantly disconnected. I want to play but I literally can't because it kicks me.

[tons0phun]

Here's a really insightful YT video I found detailing some of the story of how Zeekers came to make Lethal Company, it's a good watch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Th5RiXnRt8A

And again my respectful advice to Mr.Zeekers:
Many are surely accomplishing you, saying you've "made it", finally reached the top of "the mountain"
I would advise you to shift your perspective to the understanding that you have only reached The Mountain, and now your enduring ascent to the peak has truly just begun.

Keep focused on what you want that peak to be, what you want others to experience on the climb and what they find at the top, and network with others at your newfound level of elevation for advising on developing your path amid possible pitfalls.

[Clancy McFancy]

Excellent.

[IamNotCake]

I would like to be able to throw stuff and it can damage creatures but reduces the items value.

[Wulfen]

My main gripe with the game is how fast time passes. What ultimately boils down to "speed running" conflicts with the horror tone of this game. I don't want the game to be any easier, i just want to be inside each level longer without having to worry about how much time has passed.

Also landmines and turrets should effect other creatures

[MONSTERDROID]

Цитата допису Wulfen:

My main gripe with the game is how fast time passes. What ultimately boils down to "speed running" conflicts with the horror tone of this game. I don't want the game to be any easier, i just want to be inside each level longer without having to worry about how much time has passed

Time flow is definitely too fast for the way the stamina & weight system are currently, & definitely doesn't flow well with the idea of it being a horror game if that were the intention.

Getting to the ship as the last man standing as it took off without me was what broke me & made me stick to modding the game, base game definitely needs some adjustments to lean away from the speedrunning & overreliance on a full lobby to function as a fun game, it should have never had the lose all your scrap penalty on team wipe with a small lobby with how much of your time is spent lugging heavy junk & trying to sneak past eyeless dogs & tree giants.

Цитата допису Wulfen:

Also landmines and turrets should effect other creatures

Yes.

[King]

Цитата допису GamingWithSilvertail:

Цитата допису tons0phun:

Greetings!

• Being kicked from a game is actually just a ban. Please implement distinct kick/ban actions, or at the least properly label it as "BAN" and not Kick.

If you're kicked from one singular lobby you arn t banned from playing in another. If people kicked you, then they wanted you out. Its simple as. You can join another lobby.

This retort would work if people wouldn't just kick you because you wouldn't get off the terminal in .5 seconds or because they dont like that you have one mod or another

[Illuminaughty]

Цитата допису Chibbity:

Цитата допису tons0phun:

This is a critique, for the Dev.

Huh.

That's weird, he must not have got the memo; because I don't see him.

Maybe because you can't stop ♥♥♥♥ riding them in community posts.

[tons0phun]

Цитата допису Illuminaughty:

Maybe because you can't stop ♥♥♥♥ riding them in community posts.

If you think that's some riding, check out this other post I made demonstrating with data that the Dev should consider Workshop support seriously before Lethal Company gets forgotten for the next Flavor of the Month. The fanboys' literal response was, "Well *I* can't get the zero-value data-point to display, so you must be baiting."

Here's hoping the Dev listens to Data, and not fanboys in an echo-chamber!

[RazakelKairo]

Actually a nicely worded and constructive post.
Though on the point of discord/steam being the supposed feedback to persue, tbh I'd argue that both should be listened to and also be received with a MASSIVE grain of salt.

Which tbf, I think Zeekers is kind of going in the right direction anyhow. Last update was pretty clear to how he wants his game's direction to go in, *for now*.
And really that's ultimately what matters. I have opinions, you have opinions, but I think Zeek's should follow initial visions (with a lil' inspiration from the community or other sources, so long if its the dev's choice) and enjoy the journey. That's been a keen ingredient to what makes a lot of indie games good nowadays. If there's pointers in your post that the dev stands behind, not because it is said but because said dev thinks its applicable, then it ain't for naught! Its good to share these things either way.