New Update: HP Regen - Health - Dodge Cap

[Demran]

With the new update changes;

-HP Regen effectiveness is lowered by 40-45% approximately.
(For example with 85 HP, 22 Regen was 3,74 hp per second, now down to 2.07 hp per second, did a few more tests and all comes up with the numbers 40-45%)
-Armor effectiveness lowered.
-Dodge cap lowered from 70% to 60% too.

Is this the way of Dev saying; Go DPS and run around like headless chickens or quit the game?

[Zouls]

Void Opal님이 먼저 게시:

I really don't understand the update so far. People are complaining about danger V being unfun due to being one-shot or two-shot, so the dev makes armor half as effective, makes HP regen basically worthless, nerfs dodge, and rolls out a wall of weapon and character nerfs. Some heavier handed than others.

Is there some broken strategy here I'm missing? Or are they just balancing for edge cases and low danger levels?

big one for me is the guaranteed 2 weapons early on.

the new health regen is a flat regen not a % anymore, so its better for non max hp builds, armor and dodge being lower means you arent just incentivized to spam max defenses and then do as little as possible.

they also nerfed boss damage by 25% and the damage of enemies too.

[I gurgle for Nurgle]

Zouls님이 먼저 게시:

Void Opal님이 먼저 게시:

I really don't understand the update so far. People are complaining about danger V being unfun due to being one-shot or two-shot, so the dev makes armor half as effective, makes HP regen basically worthless, nerfs dodge, and rolls out a wall of weapon and character nerfs. Some heavier handed than others.

Is there some broken strategy here I'm missing? Or are they just balancing for edge cases and low danger levels?

big one for me is the guaranteed 2 weapons early on.

the new health regen is a flat regen not a % anymore, so its better for non max hp builds, armor and dodge being lower means you arent just incentivized to spam max defenses and then do as little as possible.

they also nerfed boss damage by 25% and the damage of enemies too.

I did some rough calculations and it appears stacking more than 20 regen and more than 50 hp is a spot, when the new regen becomes strictly worse (based on how much seconds does it take to regen back to full hp), than the old one. And on top of it armor got hit hard. How many classes can run 50/20 and not die on wave 17+? I was really happy to see my ghost getting hit by 75 hp at wave 19. Such a good class. Now I'll have to spend 50% more time to regen this much damage at 20 reg, than I had to spend last patch. Oh, and now regen seems to scale like armor, meaning it has diminishing returns. Suddenly, this patch became even less enjoyable to play.

[Void Opal]

I gurgle for Nurgle님이 먼저 게시:

Zouls님이 먼저 게시:

big one for me is the guaranteed 2 weapons early on.

the new health regen is a flat regen not a % anymore, so its better for non max hp builds, armor and dodge being lower means you arent just incentivized to spam max defenses and then do as little as possible.

they also nerfed boss damage by 25% and the damage of enemies too.

I did some rough calculations and it appears stacking more than 20 regen and more than 50 hp is a spot, when the new regen becomes strictly worse (based on how much seconds does it take to regen back to full hp), than the old one. And on top of it armor got hit hard. How many classes can run 50/20 and not die on wave 17+? I was really happy to see my ghost getting hit by 75 hp at wave 19. Such a good class. Now I'll have to spend 50% more time to regen this much damage at 20 reg, than I had to spend last patch. Oh, and now regen seems to scale like armor, meaning it has diminishing returns. Suddenly, this patch became even less enjoyable to play.

Yeah, it's unfortunate. I think they went too far on nerfing survivability, across the board too.
Sure, you get 20-25 more health a run, but you're also taking nearly double the damage and regaining health 5x+ slower than before, only getting worse if you spec into it.
I understand that regen was broken, but the armor nerfs feel completely unfounded, honestly.
The complaints about armor was on how necessary it was to take, so they nerf it, meaning you have to take more of it to have a successful run... making the problem worse.

And some of these weapon nerfs are just upsetting!
Like, why would I ever take a shredder now when it deals only 2 more damage than an SMG, firing once every 1.3 seconds instead of every 0.17 seconds?! The only time where a shredder is worth more than a base SMG is if it'll hit 8 enemies every shot, which it just, doesn't.

I just don't understand.

What is the goal for balance here? Like, what's the baseline for a 'balanced' experience?
I would assume that the baseline would be well rounded having an average run being possible, but challenging. Of course there's characters that are strong. Masochist, pacifist, explorer, mage. They're strong, really strong. Like, mage makes danger V a breeze. That's not the point of the complaints.

I like many others am just trying to do each character's gimmick at the highest difficulty, and it's gotten so frustrating on some that it's genuinely not fun anymore after just 27 hours. Taking 47 damage from an enemy on wave 17, which if you didn't spec into health is a one-shot, isn't fun. One mistake ending a run where you need to get *lucky* to get the stats or weapons you need just isn't enjoyable, and I've found myself resetting if I don't get 2 of the weapon I want in the first shop, just so that I'm not wasting 20 minutes on a non-optimal run to get one-shot later on.

The community is complaining, content creators are complaining, and most people are stopping under difficulty 3 because nothing unique or interesting works past that point. So, why are they making it even more frustrating? Why should we have to go into "accessibility options" to make the game as enjoyable as the demo again?
I don't get it. Here's to hoping the dev sees our feedback and does something about it.

[Demran]

Tappin님이 먼저 게시:

I haven't played the beta branch, but they nerfed mob damage too. I don't know if the nerfs to damage was too heavy-handed, but doing nothing to defense stats, which were already almost always the right thing to load up, when mobs do even less damage, would have made anything else a clearly bad choice.

I'm glad they're looking at balancing incoming and outgoing damage vs defensive stats. I love this game, but would love it more if armor/health/health recovery weren't the best choice for almost every class. Some of my most fun games were when dps got out of hand, and even the boss levels just required some good dodging while everything else on the map disintegrated. Lately, I've been loading up on the defense stats on almost every class and hating myself for it.

Hmm interesting but good point of view. If they balanced it right, it would be good yeah. Balancing is generally hard but when you catch the sweet spot it feels great. True even if I got 2 armor instead of Tier 4 damage upgrade, I was at a point of choosing Armor, that didn't feel like a good design but was also my guilty pleasure. Just noticing it after I've read your post.

I gurgle for Nurgle님이 먼저 게시:

I did some rough calculations and it appears stacking more than 20 regen and more than 50 hp is a spot, when the new regen becomes strictly worse

Yeah, that's around same as my calculations, after that point regen starts to get worse (in a gradually increasing manner). But I didn't notice a diminishing return. If that is indeed true, it is bad. On the other hand consumables got upgraded a lot and are not wasted anymore, and with stacking Life Steal a little bit on top of Health Regen, we might be able to find the new sweet spot. It will take some getting used to for sure. (PS: Ghost was one of my favorites too, healing to top will be hard, though I'm very glad its Dodge is not capped at a lower number, it would have killed the character)

[I gurgle for Nurgle]

Demran님이 먼저 게시:

But I didn't notice a diminishing return. If that is indeed true, it is bad.

2 regen heals 1 hp per 3,46 sec.
5 regen heals 1 hp per 1,80 sec.
20 regen heals 1 hp per 0,53 sec.
22 regen heals 1 hp per 0,48 sec.
Need more data. obviously, but it looks like soft cap.

[Zouls]

I feel like the people here complaining about how it heals "less" severely ignore the change from every 5 seconds to every second. most builds doesnt need to heal giant chunks of % of 100 health, but rather when they take damage.

its a much much better health regen system for most builds instead of only saving health regen to weird über tank builds.

[Demran]

I gurgle for Nurgle님이 먼저 게시:

Demran님이 먼저 게시:

But I didn't notice a diminishing return. If that is indeed true, it is bad.

2 regen heals 1 hp per 3,46 sec.
5 regen heals 1 hp per 1,80 sec.
20 regen heals 1 hp per 0,53 sec.
22 regen heals 1 hp per 0,48 sec.
Need more data. obviously, but it looks like soft cap.

Ohh thanks for the numbers, was doing a sheet about it myself :)
If anyone is interested here are the numbers, can edit and add to first post for convenience too.

 3 HP Regen => 1 HP / 2.65 sec	=> 0.38 hp/sec
 5 HP Regen => 1 HP / 1.80 sec	=> 0.56 hp/sec
 7 HP Regen => 1 HP / 1.36 sec	=> 0.73 hp/sec
 9 HP Regen => 1 HP / 1.10 sec	=> 0.91 hp/sec
11 HP Regen => 1 HP / 0.92 sec	=> 1.09 hp/sec
13 HP Regen => 1 HP / 0.79 sec	=> 1.27 hp/sec
15 HP Regen => 1 HP / 0.69 sec	=> 1.44 hp/sec
17 HP Regen => 1 HP / 0.62 sec	=> 1.62 hp/sec
19 HP Regen => 1 HP / 0.56 sec	=> 1.80 hp/sec
21 HP Regen => 1 HP / 0.51 sec 	=> 1.98 hp/sec
23 HP Regen => 1 HP / 0.46 sec	=> 2.16 hp/sec
25 HP Regen => 1 HP / 0.43 sec	=> 2.33 hp/sec
27 HP Regen => 1 HP / 0.40 sec	=> 2.51 hp/sec
29 HP Regen => 1 HP / 0.37 sec	=> 2.69 hp/sec
31 HP Regen => 1 HP / 0.35 sec	=> 2.87 hp/sec
33 HP Regen => 1 HP / 0.33 sec	=> 3.04 hp/sec (= Legendary healing item)
35 HP Regen => 1 HP / 0.31 sec	=> 3.22 hp/sec
37 HP Regen => 1 HP / 0.29 sec	=> 3.40 hp/sec
39 HP Regen => 1 HP / 0.28 sec	=> 3.58 hp/sec
41 HP Regen => 1 HP / 0.27 sec	=> 3.76 hp/sec
43 HP Regen => 1 HP / 0.25 sec	=> 3.93 hp/sec
45 HP Regen => 1 HP / 0.24 sec	=> 4.11 hp/sec
47 HP Regen => 1 HP / 0.23 sec	=> 4.29 hp/sec
49 HP Regen => 1 HP / 0.22 sec	=> 4.47 hp/sec
51 HP Regen => 1 HP / 0.22 sec	=> 4.64 hp/sec
53 HP Regen => 1 HP / 0.21 sec	=> 4.82 hp/sec 

There doesn't seem to be any diminishing returns on the heals we get.
Every single point adds 0.09 HP / Sec.
And the old 50 HP Regen cap seems to be removed.

[Void Opal]

Zouls님이 먼저 게시:

I feel like the people here complaining about how it heals "less" severely ignore the change from every 5 seconds to every second. most builds doesnt need to heal giant chunks of % of 100 health, but rather when they take damage.

its a much much better health regen system for most builds instead of only saving health regen to weird über tank builds.

I agree with this, healing per second is so much more natural than every 5 seconds, but it ends up being so much less healing overall as nothing at high difficulty hits for small bits of damage.

Would you rather regain 25HP over 5 seconds or 2.87 hp/sec for a total of 14.35 HP in the same window, because that's old vs new 31 regen at 80 health.
Sure if you have lower HP you heal more, but at those low HP runs you just get one-shot or two-shot, making the increase in regen pointless. And with the nerfs to armor, those one-shots happen more now. The extra 20 or so HP you get later on simply doesn't change that.

If they didn't nerf armor and just nerfed regen, I'd be mostly okay with this update. And I feel like most people would agree there. As it stands now, I don't see a point of touching regen when you could just go for lifesteal and heal more.

[Demran]

Void Opal님이 먼저 게시:

If they didn't nerf armor and just nerfed regen, I'd be mostly okay with this update. And I feel like most people would agree there. As it stands now, I don't see a point of touching regen when you could just go for lifesteal and heal more.

Probably instead of one or the other, a little bit from both is the way. But if you have high speed weapons, it might be wiser to just stack attack speed and go nuts with Life Steal. Definitely easily outperforms HP Regen.

[I gurgle for Nurgle]

Demran님이 먼저 게시:

There doesn't seem to be any diminishing returns on the heals we get.
Every single point adds 0.09 HP / Sec.

Well, I'm just bad at math then. Thx for the data, it's quite helpful.

Demran님이 먼저 게시:

Void Opal님이 먼저 게시:

If they didn't nerf armor and just nerfed regen, I'd be mostly okay with this update. And I feel like most people would agree there. As it stands now, I don't see a point of touching regen when you could just go for lifesteal and heal more.

Probably instead of one or the other, a little bit from both is the way. But if you have high speed weapons, it might be wiser to just stack attack speed and go nuts with Life Steal. Definitely easily outperforms HP Regen.

Thing is, lifesteal is quite meh stat with its 2% per upgrade tier. Unless you are using med build (in this case you don't need to stack lifesteal in the first place) or a flamethrower. On top of it ifesteal tends to be very bad at wave 20, especially fo melee builds.
It seems like early and mid game became easier and the last 3-4 wave became way harder.

[just.dont.do.it]

I gurgle for Nurgle님이 먼저 게시:

Thing is, lifesteal is quite meh stat with its 2% per upgrade tier. Unless you are using med build (in this case you don't need to stack lifesteal in the first place) or a flamethrower. On top of it ifesteal tends to be very bad at wave 20, especially fo melee builds.

Lifesteal works okay with all the weapons that have innate lifesteal AND all weapons that attack fast (flamethrower, minigun, smg, and so on). All things considered, about half of the weapons we have work with lifesteal at least okay-ish.

Using melee lifesteal can be quite dangerous in the last wave, indeed. Bosses hit hard and are more dangerous up close and there isn't that much additional spawns.

[Kai Mauer]

Demran님이 먼저 게시:

There doesn't seem to be any diminishing returns on the heals we get.
Every single point adds 0.09 HP / Sec.
And the old 50 HP Regen cap seems to be removed.

The formula seems to be (5+4x)/45 for x>0. At least it works for the numbers that gurgle and Demran have posted.

[Demran]

Heinrich Kramer님이 먼저 게시:

Demran님이 먼저 게시:

There doesn't seem to be any diminishing returns on the heals we get.
Every single point adds 0.09 HP / Sec.
And the old 50 HP Regen cap seems to be removed.

The formula seems to be (5+4x)/45 for x>0. At least it works for the numbers that gurgle and Demran have posted.

either on point of very close, nice reverse engineering mate.

I gurgle for Nurgle님이 먼저 게시:

Well, I'm just bad at math then. Thx for the data, it's quite helpful.

Oh you did great, it's just you calculated the "1 HP / x sec" changes which can be very confusing, instead of the "x HP / 1 sec".
The first goes down gradually slower, while on the 2nd; the increase is linear.