Ancient Egyptians weren't black with scientific proof

[Shazam]

Ancient Egyptians would not have looked Sub Saharan African (the people colloquially referred to as 'black', who I will refer to from now on by the abbreviation "SSA") and did not have SSA ancestry. In fact, they had less SSA than modern Egyptians do. This came to light through a 2017 study by Verena J. Schuenemann, Alexander Peltzer and others that examined the mitochondrial DNA of 90 ancient Egyptians and the whole genome ancestry of 3 of Egyptians over the course of 1300 years between the New Kingdom and the Roman period.

https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms15694

Here were their conclusions:

"Our analyses reveal that ancient Egyptians shared more ancestry with Near Easterners than present-day Egyptians, who received additional sub-Saharan admixture in more recent times."

But wait, there's more. We can actually visualise this. Using what's called a Principal Component Analysis (PCA), geneticists can plot the genomes of ancient and modern populations against one another, in order to understand their interrelatedness to one another. This is where the 3 Ancient Egyptians who were DNA tested plot on the PCA compared to modern Egyptians (they are the plus symbols to the left)
https://imgur.com/a/D36uyK0

We can see that Ancient Egyptians are very close to modern Egyptians genetically, and its evident that the latter population is a continuation of the former, but, we can also clearly see that modern Egyptians have genetic drift towards Sub Saharan Africa, and away from ancient Egyptians! So Ancient Egyptians have less SSA ancestry than the least SSA admixed modern Egyptians!!!

Does this mean that ancient Egyptians were white Northern Europeans? No, they were distant from both North and South Europeans too. Ancient Egyptians genetically resemble Lebanese people, and Neolithic Levantines. Basically, they were genetically pretty much identical to ancient Samaritans and Hebrews. And this is how they should be depicted, as it is historically accurate. The modern myth that Ancient Egyptians were black simply does not agree with the DNA evidence, so depicting them as Black african, or even half African, is inaccurate and dishonest.

[Chip Chipperson]

Egyptians weren't black African, and there was only a sliver of less than one hundred years when actual black Africans were in the ruling class of Egypt(The Kushites), and that didn't happen until like 700 years after Cleopatra was dead and gone, and it was an unprecedented historical big deal that black Africans had swooped in and taken control of the collapsed Egyptian empire for a very brief and disastrous spell.

[jonoliveira12]

Origineel geplaatst door Chip Chipperson:

Egyptians weren't black African, and there was only a sliver of less than one hundred years when actual black Africans were in the ruling class of Egypt(The Kushites), and that didn't happen until like 700 years after Cleopatra was dead and gone, and it was an unprecedented historical big deal that black Africans had swooped in and taken control of the collapsed Egyptian empire for a very brief and disastrous spell.

The Kushite dynasty was long BEFORE Cleopatra.
Cleopatra was famous precisely because Egypt had no pharaohs after her ever again. She doomed her entire culture, because she was dependent on roman men, to even rule it in the first place.

[HB]

Origineel geplaatst door Chip Chipperson:

Egyptians weren't black African,

But there were black Africans who were Egyptians, we know because we have their remains them to study.

Origineel geplaatst door Chip Chipperson:

and there was only a sliver of less than one hundred years when actual black Africans were in the ruling class of Egypt(The Kushites),

But we have records of black Egyptians in the ruling class, as well as the 25th Dynastic Pharaoh, example Maiherperi/nefertiti

Origineel geplaatst door Chip Chipperson:

and that didn't happen until like 700 years after Cleopatra was dead and gone,

https://i.imgflip.com/73tioj.jpg?a467712

Origineel geplaatst door Chip Chipperson:

and it was an unprecedented historical big deal that black Africans had swooped in and taken control of the collapsed Egyptian empire for a very brief and disastrous spell.

https://sk.sagepub.com/Reference/blackstudies/n197.xml
"The Nubian pharaohs of the 25th Dynasty revitalized the glory of Kemet (Ancient Egypt)"

[jonoliveira12]

Origineel geplaatst door HB:

Origineel geplaatst door Chip Chipperson:

Egyptians weren't black African,

But there were black Africans who were Egyptians, we know because we have their remains them to study.

Origineel geplaatst door Chip Chipperson:

and there was only a sliver of less than one hundred years when actual black Africans were in the ruling class of Egypt(The Kushites),

But we have records of black Egyptians in the ruling class, as well as the 25th Dynastic Pharaoh, example Maiherperi/nefertiti

Origineel geplaatst door Chip Chipperson:

and that didn't happen until like 700 years after Cleopatra was dead and gone,

https://i.imgflip.com/73tioj.jpg?a467712

Origineel geplaatst door Chip Chipperson:

and it was an unprecedented historical big deal that black Africans had swooped in and taken control of the collapsed Egyptian empire for a very brief and disastrous spell.

https://sk.sagepub.com/Reference/blackstudies/n197.xml
"The Nubian pharaohs of the 25th Dynasty revitalized the glory of Kemet (Ancient Egypt)"

He even got the chronology completely wrong.

[HB]

Origineel geplaatst door jonoliveira12:

He even got the chronology completely wrong.

Indeed, but his post history shows he has math issues so thats prob why he was so confused.

[Alpharius Nox]

Origineel geplaatst door HB:

Origineel geplaatst door Alpharius:

Most people who saw the Ancient Egyptians and were contemporary to them, claimed they were similar to Nubians and other Africans further south. And this was the consensus all the way up until the 19th Century, it's not an Afrocentrist conspiracy. It's a fact.

Another fact or two that shows your just making it up, Romans/Greeks of the classical understood and reported Egyptians to be brown not black like Nubians.

In this passage by Herodotus, he seems to say that they are both dark skinned:

“I myself guessed it to be so, partly because they are dark-skinned and woolly-haired; though that indeed goes for nothing, seeing that other peoples, too, are such; but my better proof was that the Colchians and Egyptians and Ethiopians are the only nations that have from the first practised circumcision”.

Regardless of the skin color of the Ancient Egyptians being jet black or brown, or light brown, the fact is, they were native Africans and shared their culture with other African populations.

Diodorus wrote:

"They say also that the Egyptians are colonists sent out by the Ethiopians, Osiris having been the leader of the colony. For, speaking generally, what is now Egypt, they maintain, was not land but sea when in the beginning the universe was being formed; afterwards, however, as the Nile during the times of its inundation carried down the mud from Ethiopia, land was gradually built up from the deposit. Also the statement that all the land of the Egyptians is alluvial silt deposited by the river receives the clearest proof, in their opinion, from what takes place at the outlets of the Nile; for as each year new mud is continually gathered together at the mouths of the river, the sea is observed being thrust back by the deposited silt and the land receiving the increase. And the larger part of the customs of the Egyptians are, they hold, Ethiopian, the colonists still preserving their ancient manners. For instance, the belief that their kings are gods, the very special attention which they pay to their burials, and many other matters of a similar nature are Ethiopian practices, while the shapes of their statues and the forms of their letters are Ethiopian; for of the two kinds of writing​ which the Egyptians have, that which is known as "popular" (demotic) is learned by everyone, while that which is called "sacred"​ is understood only by the priests of the Egyptians, who learn it from their fathers as one of the things which are not divulged, but among the Ethiopians everyone uses these forms of letters. Furthermore, the orders of the priests, they maintain, have much the same position among both peoples; for all are clean​ who are engaged in the service of the gods, keeping themselves shaven, like the Egyptian priests, and having the same dress and form of staff, which is shaped like a plough and is carried by their kings, who wear high felt hats which end in a knob at the top and are circled by the serpents which they call asps; and this symbol appears to carry the thought that it will be the lot of those who shall dare to attack the king to encounter death-carrying stings.​ Many other things are also told by them concerning their own antiquity and the colony which they sent out that became the Egyptians, but about this there is no special need of our writing anything."

You didn't post anything that says the Egyptians were not Africans, only that they are not jet black, which not every African ethnic group is jet black . . . and although you did post this:

“the men of Egypt are mostly brown or BLACK with a skinny desiccated look”. - Ammiuanus Marcellinus

There's been a lot of new discoveries that show this ancient notion that the Egyptians and the Nubians shared a cultural origin. A great book covering this can be found here:

https://isac.uchicago.edu/research/publications/oimp/oimp-33-pyramids-origins-egyptian-civilization

[Grok]

Just here laughing at the afrocentrists changing the argument from “ancient Egyptians were black” to now “black people were in ancient Egypt” thinking no one will notice.

[HB]

Origineel geplaatst door Alpharius:

There's been a lot of new discoveries that show this ancient notion that the Egyptians and the Nubians shared a cultural origin. A great book covering this can be found here:

https://isac.uchicago.edu/research/publications/oimp/oimp-33-pyramids-origins-egyptian-civilization

One of which is ability now to map over time, the spread of Bennins sickle cell over africa, that Ramases had, along with the DNA time line for livestock coming up to Egypt via migration who did not have those species.https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2992715/

[Lucid]

Origineel geplaatst door Alpharius:

@Lucid,

Please don't bring Afrocentric nonsense into this conservation.
Or I will start bringing up Eurocentric nonsense into the conversation.
It's not helpful. There was a time when this Afrocentric movement was needed to counteract the racist lies being told, but now it has morphed into a disgusting ideology of lies and misconceptions by people who need a self esteem boost. And I don't subscribe to ANY of it.

Yes, DNA studies are complicated and every one of the studies has flaws and limitations that should be taken into consideration before making sweeping claims about a population with nearly 10,000 years of history. But, the only study that people talk about is this 2017 study, as if it were the final word. But there are more, and other types of anthropological studies too. I'm wondering why the only one people seem to know about is the 2017 study . . .

Most people who saw the Ancient Egyptians and were contemporary to them, claimed they were similar to Nubians and other Africans further south. And this was the consensus all the way up until the 19th Century, it's not an Afrocentrist conspiracy. It's a fact. You may not like it, just like I don't like it myself, but it is true. Here is a direct quote with the man who started the whole debate:

"The opinion that the ancient population of Egypt belonged to the Negro African race, is an error LONG ACCEPTED AS THE TRUTH. Since the Renaissance, travelers in the East, barely capable of fully appreciating the ideas provided by Egyptian monuments on this important question, have helped to spread that false notion and geographers have not failed to reproduce it, even in our day. A serious authority declared himself in favor of this view and popularized the error. Such was the effect of what the Celebrated Volney published on the various races of men that he had observed in Egypt."

And, I'm not trying to say that Ancient Egypt was a homogeneous black civilization, that would be Nubia. But neither can anyone say that it was a homogeneous middle eastern civilization either, there's no evidence to support either. I have, on my cloud drive, every single DNA test done on Ancient Egyptian mummies, you'd be surprised to know that there haven't been very many at all, 12 maximum. And the results of these show a wide range of origins. Some show sub-Saharan origins, some show North African, East African, European, Middle Eastern, ect ect. What I find funny, is that you find the one study that shows a small group of people from ONE part of Egypt were a particular origin and claim that for the whole of the country for all it's history. That's not scientific, and its extremely flawed. The only thing we can say for sure is that there were multiple ethnic groups, and nobody knows which group was dominant and which group was not.

The Eurocentric "racism" (meant for only white people) idea is ironically more correct than Afrocentrism. The most recent case being Cleopatra (so far). Eurocentrism has a lot of flaws, I won't go into because it will derail the subject. But I don't agree with your narrative that it was some noble corrective mechanism that simply degenerated over time. At best, it's a mere ignorant blind overreaction out of jealousy, at worse, a hatred that attempts "pay back." It was always ugly. But at times, masked itself. But, that's besides the point.

You been attacking another person for evidence, quite a few times. Chastising that person over and over again. So, I looked around and found evidence. Actual concrete evidence and data. There was other evidence, but I wanted the "best" thing that helped your case and do some investigation into that. And, I found it. And that best case I found, from yes, 2017 (unless there's something else which I'm willing to be open to), doesn't really exactly help your position and say exactly what you (and your faction on here) want it be (and let's be real. we both know what you want it to be. whereas I have no problem with the Egyptians not being white). And this is me *trying to look* for the more Afrocentric leaning narrative with a genetic study. The conclusion gives more obvious plausible answers. If you want to gloss over them, fine. And to add to that, I've given more recent analogies to illustrate such points that the authors/geneticists are trying to say. If you actually want to produce genetic evidence that deals with populations and haplotypes, be my guest. Now to be sure, yes, it's from 2017, and I agree, new studies exist come out. I'm all ears for that.

You keep claiming you're not, but every piece you write is that, so that's what I going to deem you as. You haven't even giving me the source of that quote (not that I think I want to know to be honest). I'm not going to rehash the Nubians. If you want to be pedantic and say the Nubians were another group of "Ancient Egyptians," in the most obtuse sense, that there other ancient peoples who lived in the region now known as Egypt greater during ancient times (although they lived much lower), fine, I'll accept that.

What I find funny, is so far you produced nothing. You showed some hieroglyphics and busts that i bet are grossly misrepresented (Egyptians showed other people in their hieroglyphics all the time. this doesn't mean anything. I can't read hieroglyphics. I doubt Alpharius can too) on flickr. I could go to any Afrocentrist website and find [selective] statues or hieroglyphics that are grossly misrepresented, presented as facts, for the easily misinformed. I doubt you do and don't even know the genetic haplotype groups for Africans (L2 for example).

Egyptologist say they don't. Geneticists say they don't. But Alpharius says they do. I'm going to go with them. Not you. If that's an appeal to authority, so be it.

[SBA77]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnGfzEj12mk

[HB]

Origineel geplaatst door HB:

Origineel geplaatst door Alpharius:

There's been a lot of new discoveries that show this ancient notion that the Egyptians and the Nubians shared a cultural origin. A great book covering this can be found here:

https://isac.uchicago.edu/research/publications/oimp/oimp-33-pyramids-origins-egyptian-civilization

One of which is ability now to map over time, the spread of Bennins sickle cell over africa, that Ramases had, along with the DNA time line for livestock coming up to Egypt via migration who did not have those species.https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2992715/

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-zISyOW97QEU/Vl0v5ywtCHI/AAAAAAAAB_Y/NJ58S2Zoj_Y/s1600/benin_sicklecell_distrib.gif

[Alpharius Nox]

[quote=𓋴

Egyptologist say they don't. Geneticists say they don't. But Alpharius says they do. I'm going to go with them. Not you. If that's an appeal to authority, so be it. [/quote]

Funny, I just posted quotes from a few Greeks that explain the similarities between the Egyptians and the Nubians. I posted a ton of links on another thread that recently got deleted, and nobody actually read those links, so I figured whats the point. And some things I post require you to actually buy and read a book because they can't be found with full text online like a simple study can. What I can find online, I try to post.

I just posted a link to a book of multiple studies that cover Ancient Egypt, a few of the studies in that book talk about the cultural origins of Ancient Egypt, from people who were indigenous to the Nile valley and were tropical Africans.

Study of Napta Playa:

https://web.archive.org/web/20110806140123/http://www.comp-archaeology.org/WendorfSAA98.html

You'll have to buy this book and read it, unless you can find it online:
https://www.amazon.com/Egypt-Its-African-Context-International/dp/1407307606
This one goes through all the archelogical and anthropological evidence linking Egypt to Africa that have been discovered or reevaluated.

Here's a study comparing Ancient Egyptians to other Africans as far as body types, apparently they had tropical African features.

https://www.academia.edu/1400127/Variation_in_Ancient_Egyptian_Stature_and_Body_Proportions

A quote from a study you might want to take a look at:

"Some have argued that various early Egyptians like the Badarians probably migrated northward from Nubia, while others see a wide-ranging movement of peoples across the breadth of the Sahara before the onset of desiccation. Whatever may be the origins of any particular people or civilization, however, it seems reasonably certain that the predynastic communities of the Nile valley were essentially indigenous in culture, drawing little inspiration from sources outside the continent during the several centuries directly preceding the onset of historical times..." July, Robert William (1975). Precolonial Africa : an economic and social history.

Another study of pre-Dynastic Egyptians:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ajpa.20569

A study of the Naqada culture:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/337001806_A_biological_perspective_of_the_relationship_between_Egypt_Nubia_and_the_Near_East_during_the_Predynastic_period

More:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30055809/

And another:
https://books.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/propylaeum/reader/download/180/180-30-76280-1-10-20161130.pdf

Also a nice book to read:

https://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Africa-Global-History-300/dp/069124409X/ref=sr_1_2?crid=93ON8VNR3THQ&keywords=ancient+africa&qid=1686810829&sprefix=ancient+africa%2Caps%2C399&sr=8-2

I think that's enough for now.
So what's with the obsession with Pre-Dynastic Egyptian cultures?
Well, because these cultures founded the origins of what we know as Ancient Egypt, their language, their religion, their burial practices, all came from groups of people along the Nile Valley. The last of these groups was the Naqada III group, which most studies show to be related to other tropical African groups, as well as North Africans to a small degree.

These people founded the civilization of Ancient Egypt, they were Africans by all but a few accounts. And modern studies show, that the ancient Greek and Roman assumptions that the Egyptians and Nubians, had similar origins, as was told to them by Nubians and Egyptians during that time, seems to be true thanks to archaeology and linguistic studies.

[Alpharius Nox]

Origineel geplaatst door HB:

Origineel geplaatst door HB:

One of which is ability now to map over time, the spread of Bennins sickle cell over africa, that Ramases had, along with the DNA time line for livestock coming up to Egypt via migration who did not have those species.https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2992715/

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-zISyOW97QEU/Vl0v5ywtCHI/AAAAAAAAB_Y/NJ58S2Zoj_Y/s1600/benin_sicklecell_distrib.gif

I already tried explaining that the Ramses III of this game had the E1b1a.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V38

And looking at wall paintings of him:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramesses_III#/media/File:KhonsuTemple-Karnak-RamessesIII-2.jpg

You could more than likely say he was black African, right?

[HB]

Origineel geplaatst door SBA77:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnGfzEj12mk

He fails to note Cleopatra female line, rather a large omission. As for Art,

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/u440/Treday90/94434926_3086478528069403_3066368970♥♥♥♥06656_o.jpg
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/u440/Treday90/IMG_4257.jpg
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/u440/Treday90/95930566_3107712012612721_8883097407378685952_o.jpg
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/u440/Treday90/95097824_3097691103614812_8767220645726519296_o.jpg
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/u440/Treday90/96785365_3120590464658209_7102819246844936192_o.jpg
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/u440/Treday90/95865083_3107712215946034_6845843648353927168_o.jpg
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/u440/Treday90/96753668_3117442281639694_4♥♥♥♥59758494875648_o.jpg
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/u440/Treday90/94571865_3097691233614799_1694140568482873344_o.jpg

And of course https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CFtipfu058

"Other ancient Egyptian practices show strong similarities to modern African cultures including divine kingship, the use of headrests, body art, circumcision, and male coming-of-age rituals, all suggesting an African substratum or foundation for Egyptian civilization" - The Oxford encyclopedia of ancient Egypt, Volume 3. Oxford University Press

[HB]

Origineel geplaatst door Alpharius:

Origineel geplaatst door HB:

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-zISyOW97QEU/Vl0v5ywtCHI/AAAAAAAAB_Y/NJ58S2Zoj_Y/s1600/benin_sicklecell_distrib.gif

I already tried explaining that the Ramses III of this game had the E1b1a.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V38

And looking at wall paintings of him:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramesses_III#/media/File:KhonsuTemple-Karnak-RamessesIII-2.jpg

You could more than likely say he was black African, right?

I would say the balance of probability is that he had black skin tone, his black DNA http://www.thegeneticatlas.com/E1b1a.png is 3 times that of Pharaohs we know are not black ( one has zero sub Saharan ancestry) and as high as those we know to be black Egyptian of high status, he skull/mandibles etc has a high incidence of negroid features, he had the anti maleria gene, he had high sickle cell deficiency that typical is not Egyptian. For me the problem is when* he gets his genetic input is the problem, its also possible he is many generations removed from it rather than being only a few.
*
"Blacks appear in Egypt from the beginning of the third millennium BC and multiply in number during the second half."

"Interracial mingling continued as black mercenaries increasingly served in the Egyptian army, married Egyptian women, and had mixed
children. Intermarriages between Egyptians and women from the south were not uncommon, and the harems of the pharaohs included Nubian ladies."
- Snowden, Frank M. “Misconceptions about African Blacks in the Ancient Mediterranean World: Specialists and Afrocentrists”.


The Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt Vol 3 ed Donald Redford

" Thus, by modern American standards, it is reasonable to characterize the Egyptians as “black,” while acknowledging the scientific evidence for the physical diversity of Africans”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOMFk_pi6tc