war battles in Suikoden II

[Sierra]

I really don't like the war battles in Suikoden II. I felt that way back then on PSX when I was way younger but now those battles leave such a bitter taste in my mouth.
I like them a lot storywise but other than that they just fool you in thinking you have any options or choices. if the plot does not want you to win a certain battle or even only small skirmishes within those battles, you just lose them. No matter how you arrange your troops, those numbers shown by the units (enemies and allies) don't seem to reflect anything.
At least that's true for the majority of the battles and especially in early to mid game.
It gets better at the end of the game but overall I like the rock-paper-scissor system from Suikoden a lot more.

How do you guys see that? Am I too harsh or even wrong about that?

[Tenshu]

I'm with you. Mechanically S2's wars had the potential to be incredibly fun but as you said most of them are basically cutscenes with extra steps.

[Ray Rook]

I don't like any of the major battles in the games. The only thing good about them is they add a new type of combat. Well, except Suikoden 4's naval combat. That was pretty fun.

But they're all bad.

It's almost like someone said this game hasn't aged very well and got six clown rewards over it.

[Vex]

I always assumed most of the war battles were scripted because they're so RNG dependent that winning them boils down to luck most of the time. Suikoden was built with being easy in mind, and the war battles in the second game, if you had to win by wiping out all the enemies or their general every time, wouldn't be easy. All you'd need is a few rounds of losses and it becomes almost impossible to win, really.

I do agree that makes them not as fun as they could be, but short of gutting the existing system for an entirely new one I don't know how one would go about fixing that.

[Zeo]

Publicado originalmente por Vex:

I always assumed most of the war battles were scripted because they're so RNG dependent that winning them boils down to luck most of the time.

The majority are, I never noticed until I started watching speedruns, most of the battles you only need to wait for time pass or invade the city/castle to win without doing any fight lol.

Most of the battles I cheese with archers and magic, this is one of the reasons of why I prefer Kasumi over Valeria.

[Criosphinx]

I'll be the weirdo and say I like all of them, actually (except 3, I don't even have a memory of it since I hate S3). They're all unique in their own ways and they apply a fair amount of strategy to make sure you do the right thing. However I think people fail to realize the MAIN aspect of their very existence - the possibility of having stars permanently die. If you don't know what you're doing, you lose your recruits and your whole game is ♥♥♥♥♥♥ over. Just like actual war, high risks involved in high-scale conflicts. If you've played through the game 10+ times though you know exactly what you're doing and it's not really an issue.

I don't like how the ones in S2 are all scripted so you can just flee and not engage in the enemy almost at all except for a select few battles, then just wait out the timer. And the war battles in 5 are by far the best, they're just very stressful since they're RTS, not turn-based. So for me, they're all fun and enjoyable since it's satisfying to dispatch the entire enemy with little casualties, but they're not necessarily "meant" to be nice, since it's war and people legitimately die.

I still remember in my first S2 playthrough I had Koyu permadie and didn't even realize it until later. Then Annallee died in a later playthrough. Definitely scarred me a bit whenever I see them in concurrent playthroughs.

[Zeo]

Publicado originalmente por Criosphinx:

I'll be the weirdo and say I like all of them, actually (except 3, I don't even have a memory of it since I hate S3). They're all unique in their own ways and they apply a fair amount of strategy to make sure you do the right thing. However I think people fail to realize the MAIN aspect of their very existence - the possibility of having stars permanently die. If you don't know what you're doing, you lose your recruits and your whole game is ♥♥♥♥♥♥ over. Just like actual war, high risks involved in high-scale conflicts. If you've played through the game 10+ times though you know exactly what you're doing and it's not really an issue.

I don't like how the ones in S2 are all scripted so you can just flee and not engage in the enemy almost at all except for a select few battles, then just wait out the timer. And the war battles in 5 are by far the best, they're just very stressful since they're RTS, not turn-based. So for me, they're all fun and enjoyable since it's satisfying to dispatch the entire enemy with little casualties, but they're not necessarily "meant" to be nice, since it's war and people legitimately die.

I still remember in my first S2 playthrough I had Koyu permadie and didn't even realize it until later. Then Annallee died in a later playthrough. Definitely scarred me a bit whenever I see them in concurrent playthroughs.

On my first playthrough I have Maximilian die =( but I didn't noticed until I finished the game lol.

I also like the war battles, the naval battles in Suiko 4 was fun as well, I only find a little stressful to recruit Gilbert since it's easy for him to die, but usually he crit the @ss off the enemies!

[Criosphinx]

S4's battles were my favorite until I played S5, and I especially liked the little homage they gave to S1 by adding the Mint vs Mushroom S1-styled war battles, THAT was an amazing thing is S4 which was probably my favorite aspect of it. But I still always liked the S2 war battles, even with the heavy RNG and risk of permadeaths. I can see why people dislike them, but I really don't think they're AS bad as people usually claim they are. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[CLG]

My funniest moment in S2 battles was when I had melee cavalry charge an archer unit and my cavalry unit almost got obliterated. I have no idea how they calculate anything but it really doesn't seem to make sense. S5 were my favorite battles in the series by far.

[Tenshu]

Publicado originalmente por CLG:

My funniest moment in S2 battles was when I had melee cavalry charge an archer unit and my cavalry unit almost got obliterated. I have no idea how they calculate anything but it really doesn't seem to make sense. S5 were my favorite battles in the series by far.

Highland believed in the Heart of the Cards.

[CLG]

Publicado originalmente por Tenshu:

Publicado originalmente por CLG:

My funniest moment in S2 battles was when I had melee cavalry charge an archer unit and my cavalry unit almost got obliterated. I have no idea how they calculate anything but it really doesn't seem to make sense. S5 were my favorite battles in the series by far.

Highland believed in the Heart of the Cards.

More like they saw the power of the science. Silverbergs are not to be underestimated.

[Tenshu]

Publicado originalmente por CLG:

Publicado originalmente por Tenshu:

Highland believed in the Heart of the Cards.

More like they saw the power of the science. Silverbergs are not to be underestimated.

Mathiu: I will do anything to win
Meryl: First it's my eyes, now it's my butt...

[Zeo]

Publicado originalmente por Criosphinx:

S4's battles were my favorite until I played S5, and I especially liked the little homage they gave to S1 by adding the Mint vs Mushroom S1-styled war battles, THAT was an amazing thing is S4 which was probably my favorite aspect of it. But I still always liked the S2 war battles, even with the heavy RNG and risk of permadeaths. I can see why people dislike them, but I really don't think they're AS bad as people usually claim they are. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I never played Suiko5, I didn't even knew that it existed until I got internet so I hope they made a remake of it someday (I'm not interested in emulate it).

I cannot find but once a guy did a video of the rare Luca Blight speech during war, he managed to land fire spears on his @ss.

[Vex]

Publicado originalmente por CLG:

Publicado originalmente por Tenshu:

Highland believed in the Heart of the Cards.

More like they saw the power of the science. Silverbergs are not to be underestimated.

I don't know. Caesar was pretty damn underwhelming, and the first game was too short for Mathiu to shine as much as he could've. Shu and Lucretia both feel like the series' top strategists at this point, and neither is a Silverberg.

Well... protagonist strategist. Leon's the one Silverberg who outshines Mathiu.

[Quenlin]

I recommend Langrisser to everyone in this thread.

[CLG]

Publicado originalmente por Vex:

Publicado originalmente por CLG:

More like they saw the power of the science. Silverbergs are not to be underestimated.

I don't know. Caesar was pretty damn underwhelming, and the first game was too short for Mathiu to shine as much as he could've. Shu and Lucretia both feel like the series' top strategists at this point, and neither is a Silverberg.

Well... protagonist strategist. Leon's the one Silverberg who outshines Mathiu.

To be fair none of the strategists really do anything super amazing. They were inspired by the strategists of classic chinese literature which had so many clever ways to shine in their history. The conflicts in Suikoden are mostly rather direct but you get minor moments of cleverness like in S1 where Mathiu was able to create a fleet of ice boats and in 2 where Shu used the kobolds to deceive the enemy. It's been a long time since i played 3-5 so I don't quite remember how the strategists worked their magic in those games but if you look at the exploits of Zhuge Liang or Zhao Yu you could see the room for a lot of really silly moments for these characters that would fit great for the series.