Truly an unbelievable story experience. (Obviously, spoilers)

[Intern Waffle]

I really can't believe how well done the story is.

I did take some issue with it- I got to the Paintress, and was still totally in the dark. Not much of anything had been explained and I was angry. I was fully prepared to beat her and get some sort of epilogue and be disappointed that so much story was left on the table, and so little had really felt like it happened.

Then you beat her...

And there is a literal fake epilogue before the actual end of the game. Truly astonishing, very happy that part of the game wasn't spoiled for me. It's a complete mind screw in a way I don't think a game has attempted (that I've played) before. They were willing to let me stew in that anger that I still didn't really get what was happening and they were willing to let me fight that fight, disappointed that I wasn't getting the story I had expected.

So much of the story being behind this event is questionable but it's played so well and makes sense for the characters, even if narratively it's initially unsatisfying. They make up for it in strides.

So many wonderful reveals. That the paintress is not a destroyer, she's a protector, and the destruction is her protection waning. That Verso's not "really" Verso, but he sort of is. That the entire family is in here in two forms, essentially.

Hell, I even like that- as far as I've played- (I have not done the bulk of the optional endgame content)- the story doesn't get bogged down in trying to "justify" itself. It doesn't get bogged down in the "real world" of Painters. It even offhandedly mentions a warring faction- "Writers"- which could easily be a hook for a sequel. But it makes no attempt to elaborate on any of it- it simply says "here is how things are and why they have happened, there's these people with this power and that is simply the way it is". I love that. I love how much of a fairytale that is, instead of trying to make it all make sense. It simply is.

Maelle, Verso, Aline, and Renoir *all* becoming more complex characters towards the end is phenomenal writing. Everyone's wrong. Everyone's right. Renoir is a villain but he's inarguably not a bad person. Aline is destroying herself and he's not wrong to want her to stop. Maelle is risking the same fate and he's not wrong to want her to stop. But he is wrong to force her to stop, I think. And Aline isn't a hypocrite to want to help her stay in the Canvas, either- I think she understands Maelle's argument that "outside", she has lost her voice, she has a severely damaged body, and she is trapped in a life she doesn't feel she has any space in to live and feel purpose, and she sympathizes with her. Maelle is not necessarily wrong for wanting to keep Lumiere alive. These are real enough people. They are alive. They live and grow and have experiences. Inarguably, the Painters are like gods to them- it is diffuclt to think of them as "fictional" or "not real" or "made up". What is the distinction between made up and real, when the structure of one's being is determined by a god directly like this? How is this scenario any different from being created in any other way? The presence of a frame around the world as seen from the perspective of god? It's irrelevant, these are real people. I would argue the only thing that is outright not real is Verso. The paintress is Aline's "Avatar". The Curator is Renoir's "Avatar". Clea's got a form in there somewhere but I didn't engage with her content. But Verso...real Verso is dead, this Verso is akin to Esquie and Monoco, made for someone else to play with. And he knows that, and it destroys him.

But at the same time that means Verso's not wrong to think they should be allowed to die. They're already gone- it's not as if he's killing humanity. It's over. Everything's done and destroyed...and it was the result of defeating the paintress. But he knew that'd happen. Arguably, he allowed a genocide of the remaining citizens. That's bad, if you subscribe to the "these are real people" perspective. But he, too, is one of them, and was cursed by Aline with immortality and he's DONE...is it selfish of him to want to be done? Not really. Is it selfish of him to want the family to come to terms with their grief? Not really. Is it selfish of him to realize that through letting everything and everyone die? Well, yeah. But he does also give Maelle an option- he outright tells her, you can come back! Just leave and come back! But then she affirms that Renoir will just destroy the Canvas if she does, and he probably would. And would he be justified? It's genuinely hard to say.

I think they did an INCREDIBLE job writing a story where every single main player has valid motivations and issues with execution of their ideals and that no answer is truly "right".

Having seen both endings, I think...Maelle isn't wrong for keeping Lumiere around. She is wrong for bringing Verso back. SHE IS ESPECIALLY WRONG for bringing Verso back- and there's even a detail that she removes his scar...which he tells Sciel he keeps intentionally. But I don't blame her for doing it. Verso isn't wrong for letting Lumiere be destroyed. I am not entirely sure anything he does in the end is wrong. Although you can find a "Young Boy" in an optional area who does explicitly state he believes that everything in the painting is as real as anything else, and the sanctity of that life is important. So...I suppose in his own mind, he is, in fact, condemning real people to die.

Arguably, the "Good Ending" is the unsatisfying one- where the family goes back to living in reality together, and are suffering in grief, and hopefully overcome it. Arguably, the "Bad Ending" is the satisfying one- where everybody's back, and everyone gets to live a life they spent their entire lives up to that point never being sure they'd be able to see.

Neither ending is good or bad- both are black and white- both are chiaroscuro. Both are Claire Obscur.

[toughnails]

It's a good story, but IMO too many rug pulls, and some parts just don't make sense, e.g. if Renoir could open a portal to the soul of the canvas all along, then why didn't he just do that? He could've just stopped Verso's soul from painting, and then there would be no need for all this conflict.

Maelle's ending is really great though. Loved the piano scene.

[Intern Waffle]

Originally posted by toughnails:

It's a good story, but IMO too many rug pulls, and some parts just don't make sense, e.g. if Renoir could open a portal to the soul of the canvas all along, then why didn't he just do that? He could've just stopped Verso's soul from painting, and then there would be no need for all this conflict.

Maelle's ending is really great though. Loved the piano scene.

He did not have the power to do quite literally anything until after you defeat the Paintress, which is when he starts to do things. He was trapped under the monolith for 67 years.

[Hatman]

Originally posted by Intern Waffle:

Originally posted by toughnails:

It's a good story, but IMO too many rug pulls, and some parts just don't make sense, e.g. if Renoir could open a portal to the soul of the canvas all along, then why didn't he just do that? He could've just stopped Verso's soul from painting, and then there would be no need for all this conflict.

Maelle's ending is really great though. Loved the piano scene.

He did not have the power to do quite literally anything until after you defeat the Paintress, which is when he starts to do things. He was trapped under the monolith for 67 years.

I'm not even sure he would have if he could. He may be indifferent to the painted world but he obviously cares for his daughter. He keeps trying to convince her to leave willingly.
And we don't know what pulling the plug would do to the painters still inside the canvas.

[Intern Waffle]

I imagine it would destroy them, otherwise he simply would've done it to get his wife out.

Time also moves differently in the Canvas since he says he was in there for 67 years and outside, it's not even been enough time to have the house repaired from the fire.

Although when Maelle gommages in the Verso ending, Alicia is back in reality. But that happens before Verso's Soul stops painting, and stops sustaining things. So it's hard to say. But I imagine just stopping it all would probably have killed anyone inside.

[magickmynd]

Eh, I kinda see what you are saying, but I do think that there are most definitely "wrong" things to do with what the family is doing with their choices.

I do think it's absolutely wrong for Maelle to bring Verso back for her own happiness. She very deliberately took out her own painted self because she knew what her painted version was feeling and didn't want someone else making that decision for her anymore and gave her the ending she wanted.

But then she turned right around and 180'd that with Verso and brought him back against his wishes and forced him to live when he wanted to die just so that "she could have her brother back".

It was absolutely wrong for painted Verso to want to take out the canvas and everyone in it, even more so if both he and the real Verso both saw the paintings as real people with real lives. He basically commits genocide of multiple species and peoples just because he himself doesn't want to live anymore. He's extremely selfish about it.

While I do somewhat agree with Renoir that the Canvas is an addiction and he needs to pull out Aline and Alishia before they kill themselves with it, the method he is going about it is wrong I think. There has to be a way to remove them from the canvas and then wean them off it over time or something vs just destroying it outright.

And Clea is wrong for creating the Nevrons to kill everyone to help Renoir which also helps to destroy the Canvas.

I think what the family didn't understand about Verso is the reason he wanted to create music rather than use their painting powers. He put too much of himself into the painting to the point where it became far too much of it's own living and evolving world, one which got caught up in the middle of his family once he died.

Maybe it's the fact that I've played too many games and read too many books over the years with objectively "everyone wins" endings in them that I want something like that for this game, where Lumiere is saved, everyone who was gommage'd comes back, Aline and Alicia are brought out of the Canvas for an amount of time to allow them to recuperate and then go back in to kind of "wean" them off of it until they can visit without getting addicted to it like they are now, and Alicia develops enough power as a painter to restore the canvas to what it was before the fracture.

Then the entire family can visit the canvas whenever they want and they collectively protect it from the Writers who may come in later to try and destroy it just like they tried using the fire to break the family previously.

[FISHINGPLANET]

I skipped all the blah blah and cut scenes, much like your messages they were too numerous and too long.

[Tiasmoon]

The story was downright amazing in the prologue and Act 1, pretty good in Act 2 but with narrative issues (related to Verso's replacement of Gustave) rushed and amateurish in Act 3 and the endings.

I loved the game's story, and I think its a shame how much they ended up fumbling it, especially in the way they resolved the story. If they had kept up the momentum from Prologue/Act 1, this would have been one of the best games I have ever played.

But now for me atleast, its one of the least enjoyable experiences ive had by the end with the experience completely soured.

Originally posted by magickmynd:

I think what the family didn't understand about Verso is the reason he wanted to create music rather than use their painting powers. He put too much of himself into the painting to the point where it became far too much of it's own living and evolving world, one which got caught up in the middle of his family once he died.

That is an interesting point I havent seen anyone bring up yet, and I hadnt considered myself.

Maybe. I wish we had gotten more story about the family's life outside and before the fire.

[KombatKaine]

dont get me wrong, the story IS good. but it falls off over time imo. like act 1 is 11/10, act 2 is like 7/10, and act 3 is either 10/10 or 2/10 depending on your opinions about the big reveals. personally, i hate the direction they went, with the whole "youre in a canvas created by Aline/Verso/whoever. it completely kills the connection youve built with any character other than maelle, but even her to an extent. because the game said "none of these characters are real" which means the stakes arent either. im sorry, but you cant make me ugly cry over gustavs death, and then tell me he was just a fake person painted by the paintress. like, they could have done the exact same story, but instead of the canvas and painters thing, its a multiversal thing. yes, obviously not original, and honestly kind of boring. but the point im trying to make is that in that scenario, those characters are still real, even if theyre from another universe. so your connection to them doesnt change. idk, thats how i see it.

either way, justice for Gustav

[Intern Waffle]

I think "None of these charactesr are real so who cares" is a bafflingly stupid and reductive take. You're also playing a video game- you realize that, right? They weren't real to begin with, yet you're concerned about whether or not they're worth caring about if *in-universe* they are also not real? They're not real in real life, man! Who cares?

They're also explicitly in-universe real! There's multiple things in the game openly stating that basically everyone and their literal actual mother considers the canvas a real place with real people really living real lives in it, so where are you guys getting "They aren't real and now I am not invested" from?