(End Spoilers) Was he being controlled, or just simply not allowed to die?

[Ratsplat]

Many are saying that during the black and white ending scene, Verso is being controlled like a puppet, or manipulated. But since such a thing hasn't really seen previously by Renoir nor Aline (not that I can remember), I feel that Maelle is just simply keeping him immortal and trapped against his will. Less directly controlled, and more 'you can't die and I'll always know where you are, so why don't you just come in and play for us?' His hesitation and expression I don't think would be there as much if he was being directly controlled.

Also don't think he was repainted/copied, since Maelle can easily just fix and reform him how he was like with Sciel and Lune.

Though the whole Painter eyes on Maelle keeps it a bit iffy feeling.

[thufirhawat333]

Even if he wasn't controlled exactly, he was very much aware that Alicia is killing herself and he doesn't have the power to stop her. That knowledge alone is heavy stuff to carry with you.

[toughnails]

During Maelle's "A LIFE TO PAINT" ending Verso is completely defeated. We can see his internal struggle in that scene, but ultimately he resigns to his fate and plays the damn piano, as asked.

You can pick the other ending if this one's too grim for you, though personally I think Verso 100% deserved it for letting Gustave die and constantly lying to everyone. And Alicia is also better off being Maelle.

[Ratsplat]

Originally posted by toughnails:

During Maelle's "A LIFE TO PAINT" ending Verso is completely defeated. We can see his internal struggle in that scene, but ultimately he resigns to his fate and plays the damn piano, as asked.

You can pick the other ending if this one's too grim for you, though personally I think Verso 100% deserved it for letting Gustave die and constantly lying to everyone. And Alicia is also better off being Maelle.

Oh no, it's been a while now since I went with the endings. Went with Maelle, though the 'darkness' of it was definitely surprising. Not sure if I've decided which one is my actual favorite so far. Verso's certainly felt more complete, like it had actually happened, while Maelle's almost felt like a dream, or a 'what if' scene. From the way they played out.

[lordgizka]

I imagine the first thing she did was to take his immortality away, hence her comment after beating him. Otherwise, yeah, he seems to have merely resigned himself.

[Crimsomrider]

Personally I observed the scene as him simply unable to play due to having obvious inner conflicts, so she painted his worries away so he could play (thus her Painting power manifesting just like Clea's because she was actively painting in that very moment).

A life to paint simply means a life to create. Verso can be seen aging, so it is clearly her gift to him trying to honour his last wish in a different way than he wanted and trying to make him somewhat happy. He will still get to die, just not yet.

[toughnails]

Originally posted by Crimsomrider:

A life to paint simply means a life to create.

No, it means "a lifetime spent doing nothing but painting", which is Alicia's fate in this ending.

[m3fallen]

Originally posted by toughnails:

Originally posted by Crimsomrider:

A life to paint simply means a life to create.

No, it means "a lifetime spent doing nothing but painting", which is Alicia's fate in this ending.

Which is not necessarily a bad thing. People have worse jobs do to in their life.

However, and that is the darkness in the Maelle ending to me, it feels like she made her own wonderland, where everything she wants to happen will happen. What does that make with a person, when everyone around you are acting on your whims? When you never have to live with the consequences of your actions?

[Gunslinger 🚬]

Maelle cannot control anyone against their will; if this was true, then Aline would have done it too, and there would be no expeditions at all.

[Weiss]

I don't think Maelle is really "controlling" this Verso like a puppet.

It's just that in her ending, Verso is erased as we can see here

https://youtu.be/9HsMVig_B_A?t=1133

We can assume some times later she "de-erased" him (just like she has done with Lune and Sciel after Real Renoir erased them) in the hope he will smile again one day and stay by her side.
As she said in her ending : "Would you smile again if you can grow old?".

In the next scene we understand she, somehow, managed to repeat the same cycle in Lumière, as everybody is still "young" but Verso has grown really old. Like the title of this part : A life to paint ; a life to paint over and over the same thing.

So we could understand, in the scene in black and white, that this Verso is alive against his will, grown older and keeps playing piano but after all these years, he just became like a soulless body and even his muse (playing piano) has became a nightmare for him (as seen during the game black and white scene are "nightmares").

We understand too this "Lumière" repainted by Maelle is an altered one (by her selfish wishes to live with the people she loves).

Just by looking at Gustave's akward face, he really feel unatural and even in his "happy phases" during the story, he never looked like that.

Same with Sciel ; Maelle repainted her husband but NOT their child, as Maelle didn't know about the fact Sciel lost a children.
And the husband died from an accident not during a gommage so this one with Sciel is just a painted "copy" and not the original husband "de-erased" like Sophie, Gustave's apprentice, etc.

And in the finale shot we see Maelle's face decaying the same way the scars she had in the real world (she even lost her right eye from rotting like her right eye lost during the Manor accident in her real life).

Meaning that in this "twisted Lumière" even if she has a pretty face (no scars from burning), can talk normally and live with the ones she loves (by force for them) inside she is ugly and just use her Paintress powers for her selfish happyness even if the ones she loves are suffuring for eternity.

[Mauman]

Originally posted by toughnails:

During Maelle's "A LIFE TO PAINT" ending Verso is completely defeated. We can see his internal struggle in that scene, but ultimately he resigns to his fate and plays the damn piano, as asked.

You can pick the other ending if this one's too grim for you, though personally I think Verso 100% deserved it for letting Gustave die and constantly lying to everyone. And Alicia is also better off being Maelle.

You do realize that that canvas (and it's people) are ♥♥♥♥♥♥ either way, right?

The moment Alicia dies the canvas dies. Either by Clea's or Renoir's hand or by Verso's.

The only thing that that Alicia's ending accomplishes is forcing Verso to watch Alicia kill herself by indulging in her delusions.

Besides, can you really call the moral high ground if you're forcing slavery onto someone else (and it is a form of slavery that Verso is dealing with)?

[Shin Happens]

We do see people in the game who were painted over. Simon, for example, was definitely painted over by Renoir, you can read Simon's log where he talks about losing his mind (his old self), the Paintress did it first and meddled with Simon, then Renoir. But even that is not direct control or puppeteering.

Maelle repainted Verso so he would now be "mortal" I guess or at least age normally. I would say some of the old Painted Verso still remains though, thus the hesitation in the concert hall. But Maelle is not directly puppeteering him, no one in this world is directly mind controlled, you can merely paint over (reprogram) someone and break their will (like with Simon, it was a gradual process with him, as you can tell by his log entry).

Originally posted by Mauman:

Besides, can you really call the moral high ground if you're forcing slavery onto someone else (and it is a form of slavery that Verso is dealing with)?

Both endings are utterly horrible. You have to do the hard thing and weigh the potential suffering of a soul splinter against the mass murder and genocide of an entire civilisation, this does not even just include Lumière and the humans, but Gestrals, Grandis and Esquie. They are all very much alive.

I believe ending an entire world for the sake of one being is even worse than potentially making that soul splinter paint for all eternity.

That being said, if you pay attention to what Young Boy Verso, his faded boy version, is saying to the party throughout the game you get a very different picture:

he will straight tell you that he is greatly distressed and sad that Clea's creations (the Nevrons) are erasing/killing the beings in this world, he says he never wanted any of this. He even asks you to defeat some Uber-Nevron, something Clea made (probably her repainted version created it, i.e. the Painted Clea painted over by the real Clea) so it may stop.

The faded boy you meet is sad about all this destruction, he misses his sister Clea whom he used to play with in the canvas etc. He never comes across as someone who wants to destoy the canvas or the world or the beings inside of it. Quite the opposite!

The endings make little sense thematically based on everything happening in the game up to that point really.

Neither does Young Boy Verso, what remains of him, want to destoy the canvas (he is very sad about all the destruction) nor is Maelle EVER depicted as some kind of delusional dollhouse queen who would keep her painted brother around against his wishes.

In fact, if you do all the side content before the final mission and do Maelle's relationship quest she grants Painted Alicia her wish to die and gommages her out of mercy (and funny enough Verso is quite angry about that). And THAT girl then, 10 minutes later, refuses to do the same for Painted Verso who literally begs to die? Is she schizophrenic or bipolar suddenly?

No, it makes no sense.

I would always choose Maelle's ending and just ignore the hamfisted and forced conclusion of her story, it's out of character, it contradicts all that came before. I wonder what they were thinking here. Choosing Verso's ending means you kill an entire world for the sake of four or maybe five people. Let the idiot family suffer some more I say before they come to their senses. They created all this mess, they need to grow up and show some responsibility towards their own creations.

[Mauman]

Originally posted by Shin Happens:

I would always choose Maelle's ending and just ignore the hamfisted and forced conclusion of her story, it's out of character, it contradicts all that came before. I wonder what they were thinking here. Choosing Verso's ending means you kill an entire world for the sake of four or maybe five people. Let the idiot family suffer some more I say before they come to their senses. They created all this mess, they need to grow up and show some responsibility towards their own creations.

Except everyone other than Lune and Sciel are already dead. Hell, I'd argue that Lune and Sciel technically don't make it either since it seems that they don't recall what happened and as such were "painted over". That would practically make them new beings far as I'm concerned.

All you've accomplished is creating a new group of people that will die when Alica dies and is once again built on the enslavement and suffering of another.

Bravo.

[Tiasmoon]

Originally posted by Shin Happens:

In fact, if you do all the side content before the final mission and do Maelle's relationship quest she grants Painted Alicia her wish to die and gommages her out of mercy (and funny enough Verso is quite angry about that). And THAT girl then, 10 minutes later, refuses to do the same for Painted Verso who literally begs to die? Is she schizophrenic or bipolar suddenly?

No, it makes no sense.

''why didnt you let me say goodbye to my sister that I could have said that to in the past 67 years, but who I ghosted because I was on a quest to erase them from existence because I'm tired and want to end the world, and who is mad at me for getting her father killed and who doesnt want to talk to me anymore anyway''

The whole reason Painted Alicia wanted to die is because Painted Renoir is dead and Aline gone from the Canvas, both being a result of Verso's actions and him lying to the party.

You know, it just struck me that Verso is one of the most succesful villains in jrpg(?) history. Right up there with say, Caius Ballad from FF13-2. One of the few villains that managed to succeed in their goal by the end of the game.

[Blurrg]

Originally posted by toughnails:

And Alicia is also better off being Maelle.

I disagree with this heavily. Look at the expressions on Maelle throughout the entire ending, does she look like a happy person? Her smile looks fake, you can see the pain in her eyes. I would even go as far as to say that she may even be crying as there are some watery trails going down her face. I'm not convinced that Maelle/Alicia is happy in her own ending, but incredibly depressed and unable to get over her grief.

In the Verso ending, she at least has closure. And you gotta remember, she is a paintress herself. She can paint her own worlds and live and experience her own creations, of which she can recreate herself as Maelle if she so chooses. I don't think there is much good in the Maelle ending at all, just a desperate attachment to a fantasy world from a naive teenager.

[Tiasmoon]

The devs obviously framed the endings that way on purpose, precisely to give players the feel of ''no Alicia is not better off being Maelle''. However Maelle's ending is too forced and doesn't line up with her character in the rest of the story.

Its controversial and even contested for a reason.