Dogs, Rats, and Lobsters. The current PvP.

[Citizen of Zozo]

Like all Fromsoft PvP, it has an emergent meta system that clearly wasn't intended but it happened anyway. I've been attending some of the fan tourneys, hanging out in the PvP scene on the Discords, etc.

Before I begin this rant I would like to say that I am not some grand authority. I'm just a guy who has played the game's PvP enough at this point to have opinions. I base what I'm saying on my own experiences, yes, but also what I have observed at length within the competitive scene. The results of tournaments (people sweating as hard as they can to win some prize money) definitely have value in determining what's truly good and what's truly bad. At least that's my assessment.
Should this game even have a competitive scene? Is it an unbalanced broken mess? No comment on that. This is a post about types of AC's and how they interact within the current game landscape.

Anyway here's my current take: The Rock, Paper, Scissors that exists in Armored Core 6 could be called Dogs, Rats, and Lobsters.
A Dog AC is the majority of AC's. They get the name because as a rule they engage in 'dog fighting', strafing their opponent while dodging and shooting. Whereas the other two types of AC's generally do not.
A Rat is any AC that never engages. It constantly runs away, trying to kite their opponent. Most Rats are missilers, but not always. They get the name because 'ratting' has just become the slang term for being annoying and making someone chase you. Ratting also refers to running the clock out on a match while having an AP lead in order to win the game instead of actually killing your opponent.
A Lobster is any AC that is *so* unbearably heavy and loaded down with weapons and armor (usually a tanktread, but not always) that it stands no chance of ever catching a rat. They get the name from the infamous AC build the 'LRBster' which is a chonky quad laser build (the names of laser weapons mostly being a variation of the letters LRB and some numbers) that has won several tournaments. A Lobster doesn't have to use lasers to be a Lobster though. It just has to be a heavyweight which struggles to chase someone who is very committed to running away. There are many 'poorly made' Lobsters. Which are slow but don't really justify their slowness.

Dogs usually beat Rats, since a well built Dog AC is fast enough to catch the Rat but is better armed and armored. Any decent DPS weapon setup consistently closing in can overwhelm a pure missiler.
Dogs usually lose to Lobsters through sheer stat check. A Lobster has so much health, armor, and offense that it will simply shrug off whatever the Dog throws at it and punch back way harder. A Dog *can* defeat a Lobster, but they have to work very hard for it while the Lobster barely has to do anything except boost towards the enemy and spam. The bad latency tends to make it a frustrating experience for the Dog, who cannot reaction dodge most attacks. Instead, it is understood that you must adopt a kind of dodging rhythm of gameplay in order to make it 'likely' that you will avoid attacks instead of doing so in the moment like you would in most other games. Most players never reach this level of commitment, however.
Fights between Dogs are usually the most interesting to watch and the most fun to play. There is some skill expression in battles among Dog AC's, but there's also still weapons and strategies that are meta within this subset of PvP.

Rats usually beat Lobsters, especially on big maps with lots of cover. A Rat AC won a recent tournament by defeating the infamous LRBster build itself, in fact. It did exactly what you expect. It ran away, hid behind cover, and paused only briefly to fire missiles before zooming off again and again. The big chungus just couldn't keep up.
It could be argued that if a Lobster manages to actually catch a Rat, it will delete them very quickly. In this respect, there is some skill expression in playing a Rat. It is entirely possible to be a bad Rat. You need to be at least a little familiar with the playstyle and where all the useful cover is on any given map. However once a Lobster makes sacrifices in its build to actually be able to catch Rats consistently, it ceases to be a Lobster and has lost some of its offense and armor. So while Rats may be annoying, you could call them a necessary evil. A check placed on the heaviest builds to ensure that they do not truly dominate the game.

So that's my conclusion about how things currently are. Any thoughts? Useful insights to add or take away from what I have explained? Unprovoked insults? I expect and accept them as the price of doing business. I'm interested in what other people think.

[Blackmage]

In other words:
Medium > Light > Heavy > Medium

[Citizen of Zozo]

Originally posted by Blackmage:

In other words:
Medium > Light > Heavy > Medium

You summed it up nicely.

[Scrub McDuff]

This is guud stuff. Keep them coming.

[Slain]

As someone who pvps, this guy gets it.

[Call Sign: Raven]

Hey! I didn't know they had Armored Core in Zozo!

... What time is it?

[Citizen of Zozo]

Originally posted by Call Sign: Raven:

Hey! I didn't know they had Armored Core in Zozo!

... What time is it?

Zozo? Never heard of it.

Time, you say? It's 4:00.

[Call Sign: Raven]

Originally posted by Citizen of Zozo:

Originally posted by Call Sign: Raven:

Hey! I didn't know they had Armored Core in Zozo!

... What time is it?

Zozo? Never heard of it.

Time, you say? It's 4:00.

The seconds? They're divisible by 20!

[Calvin W]

Originally posted by Citizen of Zozo:

Originally posted by Blackmage:

In other words:
Medium > Light > Heavy > Medium

You summed it up nicely.

hmmm, base on your insight, I can tell the latest patch is nicely done on overall balancing.
Good Patch!

If I recall in pre-patch era, “heavy” dominate most scenario. In post-patch era, “Light” is a counter for formerly unbreakable heavy.

The new equation is logic and reasonable, I like it.

Heavy surpass Medium with heavier Weaponry and Armor. Hard effort to deal Light.

Medium surpass Light with heavier Weaponry and Armor. Hard effort to deal Heavy.

Light lack the heavy Weaponry and Armor BUT surpass Heavy with Agility. Hard effort to deal Medium.

**”Surpass” indicates get advantages here**

The Golden Triangle of an AC.
Weaponry - Armor - Agility (AC speed and sensitiveness to environment like positioning and incoming fire)

[SakuraROCK]

light missile spam zerggers >>>>>>>>>everything

[Citizen of Zozo]

Originally posted by SakuraROCK:

light missile spam zerggers >>>>>>>>>everything

I realize Rats are annoying, but they are not unbeatable. They get beat all the time.

[NOBLE SIX]

I like the terms :)

[Sigvuld]

Originally posted by IndictMe:

It’s Fromsoft pvp, it’s always been an unbalanced joke no matter what game. There’s still fun to be had with it, sure. But overall it’s a disgusting mess. And we should all know why. It’s because From games are primarily a pve experience with optional pvp and balancing a game around both is virtually impossible. Elden ring started to get it right with separate balance changes for pvp and pve but even that is still a mess.

Yeah pretty much this. PvP is already an ungodly mess to balance because players will always hyperfocus on whatever thing is considered the meta, no matter how balanced the devs make things, and it's just as much as mess in Fromsoft games despite their notable pedigree

[Auspice]

I don't really think there's a real balance problem in AC6.

- Of the dozens of arm weapons, at least a third are viable for competitive play, maybe more like half
- Of the dozens of back weapons, most (!) are probably viable for competitive play
- There are a fair number of viable FCS
- Most generators are viable
- Most boosters are viable
- A decent number of arm parts are viable
- Unsure how many core parts are viable, but there's at least 3 or 4, maybe more now
- Several leg parts in each part category are viable, probably most tbh but strict statistical analysis will eliminate some in the long term
- Admittedly, not many head parts are really good in competitive which does hurt the fashion core aspect, but using a less optimal one costs you very little performance

Even in the previous era of zimmerman dominance, the balance wasn't that bad. As people understand the game better (get better at dodging missiles and distance management, etc) winning with "meta" builds will get harder.

[Sabaithal]

The title made me think you got lost on your way to the Elden Ring forum.