The Kate Markson Mystery ?!? [SPOILERS: ULTRA LORE-NUKE]

[gnome_chomski]

So did anyone else notice that Kate Markson and ALLMIND have the same VO? Or at least they do in the Japanese dub, I have no idea if it's the same in English.

Everything about her points to her being either controlled by ALLMIND or being the actual AI itself:

- A one-off character who no one has ever heard of before, and everyone from Ayre to Handler Walter goes out of their way to mention they know nothing about her and she came out of nowhere
- "An independent mercenary assigning a contract to another independent mercenary -- that never happens, hmmm how mysterious!"
- her AC looks like a dead ringer for the ALLMIND bots you fight in the Arena starting in NG+
- Kate appears on the NG++ version of the BAWS stage where ALLMIND sic'ed the invisible sniper-bois on you, only this time you're (inadvertently) helping ALLMIND by quashing the PCA inspectors

And finally, the biggest smoking gun: In one of the final MIND BETA Arena fights in NG++, there's an AC that's a dead ringer for Kate's (same weapons and gear), and the description says it's an AI that was created through "the breadth of ALLMIND's research archives."

Kate is an AI simulacra, our existence is a lie, and ALLMIND played us like a damn fiddle. At this rate, it's entirely possible that 621 is a lobotimized schizoid brain in a jar (or bodybag), whose entire existence is nothing but an AI-induced hallucination for the purpose of testing and collecting combat data.

[Carl Hamilton]

True, didn't really think about it the first time.

[MS-14A Gelgoog]

you just realized this?

I picked up on it when Kate spoke. I play with the JP audio because EN is kinda bland and noticed Kate's VA is ALLMIND's. Couple that with Walter's dialogue I figured it was a proxy of ALLMIND and was ready for a fight near the end

[Sabaithal]

Pretty sure that "kate = allmind controlled AC" was pretty obvious. I figured it out the moment I saw her the first time, its not exactly subtle.

Especially with Allmind itself constantly giving the very subtle "ALLMIND WILL EVOLVE, SOON PILOT, VERY, VERY SOON THANKS TO YOUR HELP" foreshadowing.

Also the equally subtle allmind symbol inverting colors and turning blood-red in the mission briefings.

[Dakuwan]

Yes

[Norm Macdonald's Ghost]

Originally posted by gnome_chomski:

...Kate is an AI simulacra, our existence is a lie, and ALLMIND played us like a damn fiddle...

Just in case you weren't aware:

• Razzles are both candy AND gum.
  
• Miller Lite tastes great AND is less filling.
  
• Some posts on the internet aren't on the up and up.

[Yung Venuz]

It's signposted very strongly. Yes, Kate is ALLMIND. In fact, they even have the same voice...

[gnome_chomski]

Originally posted by Sabaithal:

Pretty sure that "kate = allmind controlled AC" was pretty obvious. I figured it out the moment I saw her the first time, its not exactly subtle.

Especially with Allmind itself constantly giving the very subtle "ALLMIND WILL EVOLVE, SOON PILOT, VERY, VERY SOON THANKS TO YOUR HELP" foreshadowing.

Also the equally subtle allmind symbol inverting colors and turning blood-red in the mission briefings.

I guess I had blinded myself about ALLMIND because it seemed TOO obvious? On the one hand, I feel like the "it was an AI dream all alongggg!" thing is too played out and makes for weak storytelling.

But I also gotta acknowledge that this game did it in a really interesting way, integrating it ludo-narratively into the NG+ cycles and the Arena. I suppose that's also why it felt like a genuine mind-blower when I realized it

[✰N0ni✰]

In the scope of the entire AC universe, it's not entirely unheard of that an independent merc gives another independent merc a contract. But for story's sake of AC6, yeah it's just ALLMIND under false identity.

The entire point of NG++ is that you're a candidate for helping ALLMIND achieve what it wants and eliminates anyone and anything standing in yours and ALLMIND's way, essentially the goal being mutually assured destruction. Iguazu being the other candidate as he might've also had Contact, but he had ulterior motives.

[Norm Macdonald's Ghost]

Originally posted by gnome_chomski:

I guess I had blinded myself about ALLMIND because it seemed TOO obvious? On the one hand, I feel like the "it was an AI dream all alongggg!" thing is too played out and makes for weak storytelling...

You're making a strange jump. Kate's not real, but that doesn't mean you're not real. Your data from the arena matches are what help create Kate. If you weren't real, what would be the point of all that?

[gnome_chomski]

Originally posted by Norm Macdonald's Ghost:

Originally posted by gnome_chomski:

I guess I had blinded myself about ALLMIND because it seemed TOO obvious? On the one hand, I feel like the "it was an AI dream all alongggg!" thing is too played out and makes for weak storytelling...

You're making a strange jump. Kate's not real, but that doesn't mean you're not real. Your data from the arena matches are what help create Kate. If you weren't real, what would be the point of all that?

I don't disagree, it's not that EVERYTHING is a simulation (even a brain in a jar is still "real"). But considering that you never see a single other human being in this game and every voice is disembodied (as is the series tradition), it introduces this wonderful "unreliable narrator" aspect where maybe other members of the cast (or maybe even all of them) could be similar acts of subterfuge against 621.

This is a universe where an AI can construct hyper-realistic foes and battlefields (the Arena) for the purpose of its self-directed evolution. It's not a stretch to think that a lot of what you see and hear as 621 is a similar manipulation, for the same purpose of collecting combat data to create the ultimate artificial lifeform.

This kind of storytelling is something of a Fromsoft tradition at this point, going back to the whole Frampt VS Kaathe debate of who is telling the truth about the world and who is subtly manipulating you (spoilers: It's both of them).

[StoneofTriumph]

Originally posted by gnome_chomski:

I don't disagree, it's not that EVERYTHING is a simulation (even a brain in a jar is still "real"). But considering that you never see a single other human being in this game and every voice is disembodied (as is the series tradition), it introduces this wonderful "unreliable narrator" aspect where maybe other members of the cast (or maybe even all of them) could be similar acts of subterfuge against 621.

We have in-game illustrations of all of the game's major characters in the sketch logs.

Also, you do spend time outside of your AC after you shoot down Ibis at the end of Chapter 4- it's when you're walking through the sewers and come across the old gen AC.

I'm going to need a whole lot more support for this gravity-defying leap of logic you're making.

[Fin]

Doesn't Ayre tell you as much or allmind herself? I'm pretty sure there was dialog that mentions this.

[StoneofTriumph]

Originally posted by Fin:

Doesn't Ayre tell you as much or allmind herself? I'm pretty sure there was dialog that mentions this.

Seeing as I'm playing through NG++ myself, I'll find out soon enough.

[Merdoc]

Allmind itself is a hive mind of sorts. Iguazu even mentions that it assimilated others you killed. How? Why? When? No clue. But it seems to be more than an AI.


Their biggest mistake was to enlist the guy we've beaten three times already xD.

[gnome_chomski]

Originally posted by StoneofTriumph:

Originally posted by gnome_chomski:

I don't disagree, it's not that EVERYTHING is a simulation (even a brain in a jar is still "real"). But considering that you never see a single other human being in this game and every voice is disembodied (as is the series tradition), it introduces this wonderful "unreliable narrator" aspect where maybe other members of the cast (or maybe even all of them) could be similar acts of subterfuge against 621.

We have in-game illustrations of all of the game's major characters in the sketch logs.

Also, you do spend time outside of your AC after you shoot down Ibis at the end of Chapter 4- it's when you're walking through the sewers and come across the old gen AC.

The slow pan to the Jailbreak mech during the briefing for the prison break level could represent the player physically crawling through the muck. Or it could just be a cinematic flourish to emphasize the reveal that the mech is where you've been locked up all along. (Typical Arquebus, thinking they could tame and re-educate you by keeping you trapped in a crappy mech.)

And Carla and Walter are (or were) real people, but the point I'm making is that the player's direct experience and the game's own narrative framing leaves open the possibility that your interactions with these characters are not what they seem.

It's about theming and the creation of a destabilized sense of reality where you're never really sure where you stand and what your relationship is to everyone you meet. (A "vibes" thing, if you will.) All of FROM's other modern games trade on this kind of ambiguity, it's very much an intentional design choice.

Relatedly, this is why I find it difficult to discuss these games sometimes. Thanks to certain youtubers the SoulsKiroRingBorne fandom is laser-focused on arriving at "definitive" interpretations of the plot via lore-archaeology. And while that's a cool and worthwhile exercise, there's also comparatively much less energy put into thematic interpretation or imagining what the game is trying to say on a "meta" level.