Making sense of the world of SMT V

[punkin]

First thing. MAJOR SPOILERS. I have played SMT V 7 times across both Switch & PC so this is fair warning that I will be discussing almost every event & every ending of the game in this post. This is my most absolute review of it's plot & what I make of it.

That being said:


The game's beginning as we know is the protagonist mysteriously entering Da'at & learning of the Shekinah Glory, God's death, & Lucifer's ascension. In every canon except Neutral & CoV Chaos, you, the Nahobino, descendant of the Serpent Slayer, create a new world upon the throne of God.

In every ending except Neutral (not True Neutral), you must fight Lucifer. The Neutral ending is the only ending in which Lucifer is not defeated, & it's the ending I believe is Lucifer's very own ideal ending, & his reason for not assuming the throne for himself.

He speaks of consuming the Knowledge of the Creator, & becoming more than anything he could have imagined by reaching the plane beyond the Heavens & Earth. He has become God by becoming unobservable, omnipotent, & most of all FREE OF THE MANDALA'S ETERNAL MACHINATIONS.


Every ending in this game is canon at the same time. You, the protagonist are the Creator. The God of Law. NG+ is also canon, & Lucifer has defeated the version of you that fought his true ascended form on NG+ at level 99.

The only ending in which Lucifer could have truly broken free of the Mandala is Neutral, him having consumed the Knowledge of the Creator, foresaken the throne, & had a nahobino sit upon it in order to destroy it, thereby allowing him to have become God, not created the world, & not require a human's knowledge.

NOW:

How can a Nahobino become a Creator, a true God without Knowledge? You might say that Aogami is the protagonist's other half & while that is true, the Condemnation bars any God except the Creator from assuming the throne & becoming the Creator. You can't just be any God, you have to be God, truly, to become the Creator. Lucifer is the Nahobino's Knowlege. He is the piece that is required for you to become God.

The world you would create without defeating Lucifer is a world bound to fall to Lucifer's reign, & so the only means by which you could break free of the Mandala is defeating Lucifer & consuming his Knowledge in order to become the Creator, but even then, since every ending is canon, becoming the Creator is an eternal struggle with Lucifer in which you are defeated & he consumes your knowledge, then you consume his & so on.

It's because of this that I believe that Law & True Neutral are CoC's most ideal ending, & while some people might say that CoV's Law ending is ideal, I believe it to be the extreme opposite, & I think that creating an infinite number of "ideal" worlds for the sake of fulfilling human desires is akin to meaningless, senseless chaos. I believe that a world without order & God's miracles like the Shekinah Glory, humanity, & even the existence of other gods is a world that shouldn't exist at all, & that if you truly wish to end the suffering of humans by demonkind, & demons at the hand of the Creator, then the most impactful thing you can do is return that world to nothingness.

To suffer is to be human, & if you truly mean to end all suffering, then you had ought to end all existence, & return it to a world without order at all. No one human can create an ideal world, & it's because of that that I believe Koshimizu & Yakumo are just plain ignorant & hypocritical. They aim to create an ideal world, but their ideal world is one of inevitable conflict & difference of opinions, which isn't ideal for humans, & is only ideal for Gods who seek glory & worship. And their never-ending conflict for more glory & more worship will eventually lead one of them to the highest throne, the highest level of worship

It's weak & the myriad of Gods in this game who complain about the God of Order are ungrateful, hypocritical, & sore losers in my opinion.

Anyways that's about a summary of my thoughts on this game. If you actually read this thanks :) I love this game -- probably the best game I've ever played.

[Mofuji]

Obviously spoilers, I guess;

Uh, no, the Nahabino is not the God of Law, that's YHVH. You can fight to uphold the ideals of the God of Law, but that does not make the Nahobino the God of Law. The game is not a loop, but rather, each cycle is its own universe. So every time you encounter Lucifer, it's for the first time.

Aogami is not the Knowledge, the main character is. Aogami is Susano-o/Susanoo/Susanoo-no-Mikoto, a god. YHVY removed the Knowledge of the old gods and put them into the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, where the serpent (snake gods being barred from attaining the throne through a curse placed onto it by... I think it was Baal?) then tempted man to eat it. That's why demons want the souls of men, because they contain their Knowledge, and thus their true power.

The condemnation was lifted when Lucifer killed YHVH, this is also why there were other Nahobino. The angels are in denial of their God being killed, and Bethel, being created by the angels, was lying to the rest of the old gods so that they wouldn't get any ideas of replacing YHVH. This is why, in CoC, when Bethel disbands, Odin, Zeus and the like all rush to find their Knowledge, because they realize they can become Nahobino again and take the throne.

Lucifer wants to break the cycle, and that's why he wants you to beat him and consume his Knowledge, so you can do exactly that. That's why true neutral where you destroy the throne is the ideal universe, because it removes all gods/demons, removes the whole Conception (SMT5's cluster of universes are an offshoot of Nocturne, only the location of the Conception was different and there was no Demi-fiend and/or group of Reasons to remake the world until 18 years later) and leaves mankind alone to master its own destiny.

[punkin]

YHVH is never once mentioned in the story of this game.

You can argue with me all you want about this but the fact is plainly that nobody EVER mentions him as being the Creator or the God of Law.

And yes I meant to say that the protagonist is Aogami's knowledge in my original post rather than the other way around. The Nahobino, life given Knowledge, is Lucifer's key to breaking the Mandala.

Lucifer's entire biblical lore is him believing himself to be like God. He was felled by Michael whose name means "Who is like God?". Just like in the bible, too, does Lucifer require tempting humans into doing his will; tempting a human into becoming a Creator so that the demons of mankind may forever give rise to an endless cycle of destruction & rebirth for the throne, & in turn giving Lucifer an endless reign over the world.

As many times as any Nahobino has defeated Lucifer & created any "ideal world", Lucifer has tempted a human into destroying the throne & truly breaking the Mandala.

It doesn't matter who sat upon the throne when Lucifer slayed the Creator, he has done it countless times already during the events of this game.

Also, the Condemnation still stands, & Lucifer is the only one who has ever defeated the Creator who sat upon the throne. Lucifer truly is the second-highest to God Himself, & the only one who could have truly defeated the YHVH that you know, broken the Great Will, & been the "antagonist" of this game. He is the only one who could possess the Creator's Knowledge, & the only way for him to have achieved his true form is for him to have become a Nahobino himself.

Defeating Lucifer frees any one world's cycle from the Mandala, but the nature of becoming a Nahobino is to be human, & to give rise to demons once again. That is why the True Neutral ending is creating a world for humanity alone, & why Lucifer's way that he has found, for HIM to break the Mandala, is to tempt humans into destroying the throne.

I think you forget that Lucifer is the king of all demons, & the King of Chaos. He is THE demon that is the opposition of God. And the one who possesses his Knowledge is a human that seeks to become God. That's why the plot plays out the way that it does & why these humans we see becoming Nahobinos end up teaming up with the Gods that they do.

Any Nahobino that seeks Creation possesses the Knowledge of Lucifer, & any world that any human can create, will give rise to Lucifer once again

[punkin]

NG+ is canon & there is dialogue in this game as well as Lucifer's boss battle that supports this. Lucifer has, canonically defeated the protagonist.

Every single ending is canon at the same time

[Mayo]

Doesn't the presence of Demifiend imply TDE occurred in at least one other universe and the existence of a/multiple greater Lucifer(s) than the one in SMTV (specifically, Lucifer(s) who has already moved beyond destroying his original universe to destroying multiple universes in a grander scheme against the Great Will) as opposed to the loop-stuck, single-world SMTV Lucifer.

If anything, no endings are ideal for Lucifer because the ideal one already occurred in Nocturne. In comparison, Neutral Ending SMTV Lucifer talks real pretty about freedom, but in fact has only barely begun dipping his toes in the greater picture of order and chaos since he has yet to realize the existence of the designs of the Great Will, much less begin to act against it (or have recruited soldiers). The Nahobinos who have fought and survived the Demifiend (and the Canon of Vengeance Nahobinos who have obtained the allegience of the Demifiend) are far closer to the truth than robo-Lucifer.

[Mofuji]

Originally posted by punkin:

YHVH is never once mentioned in the story of this game.

Doesn't need to be named, YHVH is always the God of Law in SMT games. The fact that He barred others from taking the throne by stripping them of their Knowledge and Lucifer being His enemy all fits His modus operandi.

Also, you're giving way too much credence to Bibical lore and Lucifer. They're all relatively new to the world, much like YHVH's order. Demons only stood by Lucifer because he was the best shot at taking down YHVH. The very same demons who were made lower by YHVH, so that they could never threaten Him.

Once he refused to take the throne, it was just whatever. Also, the moment that YHVH was killed, the Condemnation was lifted, it's just that the angels would kill anybody who had the potential to become Nahobino to threaten the order of YHVH. That's why Abdiel wants your character dead. That's why Camael wants your character dead. That's why Odin lamented that he could not take the throne, as his Knowledge had been killed. That's why Bethel Egypt was upset with Khonsu, even though he found his Knowledge and gained the power of Ra, when he decided to not take the throne.

And if the Condemnation hadn't been lifted, the main character would not have been able to become Nahobino.

And I still do not believe that SMT5 is a loop, and I hold that each cycle is its own universe. It's just that several characters are aware of what happened in each universe, and can move between them. Like when you get the Kikou Sword in CoV and it's taken by that one to a CoC universe.

[punkin]

Doesn't need to be named, YHVH is always the God of Law in SMT games. The fact that He barred others from taking the throne by stripping them of their Knowledge and Lucifer being His enemy all fits His modus operandi.

So here's the interesting thing, is that this game can be interpreted in many different ways by both new & old players. I will not deny that the explanation you provide makes sense, but bringing up YHVH -- you don't need to have any knowledge of YHVH in order to understand the events of this game, because the only mention of Yahweh is in Baal's compendium entry, where the worship of Yahweh & Baal in the same temples is a time "long since passed".

Abdiel describes Atum & Baal as "rulers from long ago", & while you could make the argument that it's "obvious" that Abdiel serves YHVH, I believe it to make the most sense that Abdiel actually, in fact, serves the protagonist. Whatever you believe YHVH's role to be, that is what the protagonists' role is. Mastema also serves the protagonist.

If you've played the Law CoC ending, you will understand that the Nahobino recreates the Shekinah Glory, & uphold's God's Order. The Shekinah Glory? God's last miracle? God??
Yes. The Nahobino became the Creator, & saved Tokyo in order to save his human self while upholding the Condemnation so that demons could not give rise to Chaos & disturb the Nahobino's endless dominion over the throne.

Not only does the Law ending provide this information, but Aogami was also decommissioned for 20 years after Lucifer descended from the plane beyond the Heavens & Earth to inform the angels that the God they worship is dead, & that he has ascended the throne. Aogami only awoke when the protagonist had entered Da'at once again.

It wasn't just "whatever" that Lucifer has foresaken the throne; he outsmarted the Mandala & gave himself reign over the throne by becoming a Nahobino himself after having slayed the Creator, consumed his knowledge, & "became more than He could have ever imagined". You forget that Lucifer INVITED you to end him & consume his Knowledge. Man cannot hope to become God without demons, & there is no demon higher than Lucifer. In a Godless, lawless world, Lucifer is God.

You deny the word of the angels too much & don't give enough credit to Abdiel. The Nahobino does "serve as blasphemy" to the word of God, but Lucifer could not have defeated the God of Law & defied the Condemnation without becoming a Nahobino & becoming the God of Law himself.


In the CoV, the protagonist is sacrificed by the Quadistu because he bears the Horned God's divine aspect, & sacrificing him is the way to bring back the Primordial Chaos. Susano-O bears this divine aspect & that is why it is SPECIFICALLY the protagonist & not just any Nahobino. Canonically, the Nahobino has already become the Creator & is the one who is destined to create the new world.

Have you noticed that the Canon of Vengeance doesn't have a Neutral ending? Have you noticed how you can only choose between creation or vengeance when Yoko's hand is taken in the Path to the Empyrean at the start of the game? That is the Path to the Empyrean. If you, the Creator, take her hand & allow her soul as the Goddess of Destruction to leave that world when a new world (new save file) is born, then she is fated to threaten creation itself.


Just want to add that this is my opinion & my own interpretation of the events & I'm not denying you your beliefs, but yesterday I had an insane argument with someone about this & they just could not get over themselves & admit that you don't need to interpret the game's events as canon within itself OR canon outside of itself. It's a masterpiece -- it really is

[punkin]

The True Neutral ending is the protagonists' own will being brought to fruition & you can see how in every other ending, he nods to Yakumo, Dazai, or Yuzuru, but in this one, he nods only to the void & to himself.

The True Neutral ending supports my own theory too, because the protagonist passes by himself, but the one that the camera focuses on has yellow eyes, like Lucifer, like the Nahobino, like Dazai, like Koshimizu & Atsuta, like Yakumo.

"Can the world truly exist separate from the Mandala? Only the cosmos know what tomorrow will bring."

To me? This is just proof that the protagonist has been & always will be God. No way around it. He created a world for mankind alone, but became the Creator himself.

[Awkward butterfly]

This entire thing is disproven by the fact they reference YHVH's quotes from the bible when quoting the creator on top of Lucifer using YHVH's skills in his ascendent form when he takes on his knowledge

[Rezonus]

The law CoC route isn't the player becoming the creator, he is just reinforcing the things put in place by the creator.

[punkin]

Originally posted by Rezonus:

The law CoC route isn't the player becoming the creator, he is just reinforcing the things put in place by the creator.

Right. By.... re-creating the Shekinah Glory & a new world in the Creator's image... thereby becoming the Creator...

[markuswolfe]

Fun fact: YHWH is not the true creator. He talks a big game, he's got enough power to sell it, and he might even believe his own hype, but at the end of the day he is just an avatar of the Great Will, the true creator. At best, YHWH is a creator in the same sense as a potter: he may shape the clay, but he did not create the clay itself. More realistically, his role in the universe is that of a steward, and that is the role you are taking when you sit upon the Throne of God.

[REhorror]

Originally posted by markuswolfe:

Fun fact: YHWH is not the true creator. He talks a big game, he's got enough power to sell it, and he might even believe his own hype, but at the end of the day he is just an avatar of the Great Will, the true creator. At best, YHWH is a creator in the same sense as a potter: he may shape the clay, but he did not create the clay itself. More realistically, his role in the universe is that of a steward, and that is the role you are taking when you sit upon the Throne of God.

In Gnosticism, this is called the Yaldabaoth i.e. the False God.

[Mofuji]

Originally posted by markuswolfe:

Fun fact: YHWH is not the true creator. He talks a big game, he's got enough power to sell it, and he might even believe his own hype, but at the end of the day he is just an avatar of the Great Will, the true creator. At best, YHWH is a creator in the same sense as a potter: he may shape the clay, but he did not create the clay itself. More realistically, his role in the universe is that of a steward, and that is the role you are taking when you sit upon the Throne of God.

Those that sit on the throne are only ever stated to be ones who shape and reshape the world to their whims, not truly create anything.

Since Sophia actually exists in the game and all, that tells us that none of the so called creator gods truly are creators, because they cannot. After all, her own creation could only make poor mockeries, and not even souls. She had to give these flawed mockeries souls.