Attack and skill stats

[jigokuro]

Where are people getting exact numbers for things like attack's powers and the rates of inherent skills?
I see them being discussed around here with numbers, but I've found 2 wikis that are both mostly empty, and the guides section here also has nothing on these.
I'm quite annoyed by the lack of in game information in a series known to be hard. Some of it I can kind of figure out by in game testing, like even the minimum 2 'weak' hits of Wind Breath doing more damage than 'heavy' Zandyne.* Though wide damage ranges make even that hard. But things like the mult value of Compounded Calamity or the actual chance of 'may become critical' are entirely beyond my ability to test. I don't even know if the 'greatly increases' of Charge is more or less than x2, which is the break point of it being a dps buff or just a mana save...

*this lead to my current fav strat of using Vritra for Pandemonic Feast + Dance to make Breaths hit 6-9 times, which has been hilariously effective for any fight without mixed block/weakness. Alice's Die for Me! hitting 10 times? Yeh, they will.

[AngryChair]

Megami Tensei Wiki lists all skills with their Power, Accuracy, Critical Chance & Cost, you should check it out. These values are for OG SMT V, but most are still the same except for a few, like Impaler's Animus. Charge/Concentration in this game is garbage except for saving MP, in Nocturne it was x2.5 but in V it's x1.8.

[Smugleaf]

https://aqiu384.github.io/megaten-fusion-tool/smt5v/skills
The power of skills and other details are listed here.

[jigokuro]

Originally posted by Smugleaf:

https://aqiu384.github.io/megaten-fusion-tool/smt5v/skills
The power of skills and other details are listed here.

Wow, that's exactly what I wanted. The list of attacks is perfect, and while it's slightly annoying the only way to see innate skill specifics is to click to a demon that has it from the demon list, it just existing is huge. Thanks a bunch.
Edit: Oh, innate skills are just in the full list of skills, cool.

@AngeryChair There are 2, maybe 3 wikis. One has some attack data from V, but is missing some key things, and neither has any specific data for innates e.g. Compounded Calamity. Unless there'a a 'real' wiki that has terrible SEO...

[jigokuro]

Hmm, well, it isn't complete, unfortunately. All the innate abilities that say 'may crit' under some conditions still only say that. e.g. Lahmu's Divine Decree, Hell Biker's Speed Star, or Sarasvati's Vina Raga. Are those based on the bearer's Luck stat, maybe? If so, saying that would still be better than nothing...

Also it incorrectly says Pandemonic Feast is max hits +2, while I've seen moves hit +3 from the normal max for certain, maybe +4. It varies per skill use though. With it under Dance (always max hits) Dark Blade which is usually always 2 hits sometimes hits 3 and sometimes 4. While the Breath attacks seem to hit 7-9 times. So it seems to be a percentage range of the normal maximum that get added maybe?

[Merkava]

The skills you listed all give a "chance" for magic to crit, this just means that they fall under default crit probability if the conditions for the skill are met. This means that 5% chance to crit altered by crit chance variables like bloody glee or luck. If you want to calculate an educated approximation of the odds then you should read this reddit discussion, namely the comments, as there is someone that has done some preliminary tests on the odds of how crits (and damage) are calculated in this game. Most notably I would be talking about this.

If you want the values to be displayed ingame (for easy viewing then) then I suggest this mod[gamebanana.com]. As a general rule of thumb if a skill makes no mention of additional crit chance then it's odds should be 5%, if a skill has "increased crit chance" then it's +20% if multi-hit and +30% if single target. I believe there are exceptions but those are the general rules.

[jigokuro]

Originally posted by Merkava:

The skills you listed all give a "chance" for magic to crit, this just means that they fall under default crit probability if the conditions for the skill are met. This means that 5% chance to crit altered by crit chance variables like bloody glee or luck.

Ooooh, so magic can't normally crit? OK, that makes sense now. I missed the game ever saying that (or it just didn't) so I assumed the 'may become critical' had to be an increase to an existing crit rate.
Also, I could've sworn I saw 1 PF add more than two hits, but apparently I've independently found one of the strongest strats in the game that is quite well documented, so I'm either crazy or am remembering a time I had Mermaid out too. (TIL the increase stacks, neat.)

[Merkava]

Originally posted by jigokuro:

Ooooh, so magic can't normally crit? OK, that makes sense now.

Yes, that is the case. This is the main reason why physical builds tend to overtake magic in the endgame (specially on vanilla). Crits become incredibly powerful with Critical Zealot and Critical Aura. Vengeance now makes it possible for Magic to crit outside of Omagatoki but it requires a lot of setup (the skills you posted are examples of this).

[jigokuro]

Originally posted by Merkava:

Vengeance now makes it possible for Magic to crit outside of Omagatoki but it requires a lot of setup (the skills you posted are examples of this).

Thanks. Am I right in thinking that even with a skill that lets spells crit, they are only able to crit by change (even if increased by Glees) as Critical Aura specifically only works for physical skills. Seems still kinda bad. The reason phys gets ahead is Aura ensuring crits--if taking half your actions to do so. I guess magic has the advantage of hitting weaknesses? Actually, doesn't that mean Phys isn't getting the bonus actions with press turn? That actually seems pretty bad, so I must be missing something.

And then what does Luck even do? I thought the game said it had to do with crits, but number I'm seeing flat percentages without any mention of it. Same for chance of applying status effects, and the proc rates of innate skills--all fixed percents...?

[🎃 Claire 🎃]

https://gamebanana.com/mods/524624

Semirelated, this mod puts all of the information into the skill descriptions themselves.

[Star Sage]

I see, interesting, so Zeus and Odin remain the two tops when it comes to an attack that both pierces naturally, and does damage, though of course, the Magatsuhi skills are stronger than anything an individual can do. Mind, they've got some competition as far as power goes this time in the Almighty arena, which was lacking in stopping power in base SMTV.

That said, I still run them, plus Lucifer for mobs, and swap him out for either an effect based character like Shiva, or use Odin+Thor for effect and swap it out for Masakado for even MORE stopping power.

[jigokuro]

Originally posted by Merkava:

If you want to calculate an educated approximation of the odds then you should read this reddit discussion, namely the comments, as there is someone that has done some preliminary tests on the odds of how crits (and damage) are calculated in this game.

Bring this thread back up because I've found this thread to be very wrong. Pandemonic Feasts don't stack. See this vid I made of 3 of them with Dance and TC still only hitting 9 times: https://imgur.com/a/9MzZsqz
Of course, I find this out only after putting a bunch of effort into crafting more PF demons with perfect skill combinations...

[Merkava]

Sorry, didn't see the replies,

Originally posted by jigokuro:

Thanks. Am I right in thinking that even with a skill that lets spells crit, they are only able to crit by change (even if increased by Glees) as Critical Aura specifically only works for physical skills. Seems still kinda bad. The reason phys gets ahead is Aura ensuring crits--if taking half your actions to do so. I guess magic has the advantage of hitting weaknesses? Actually, doesn't that mean Phys isn't getting the bonus actions with press turn? That actually seems pretty bad, so I must be missing something.

The thing is the Critical Zealot (the passive) is INSANELY powerful since it's calculated multiplicative to other crit damage sources so even with setup a crit build will usually outdamage a magic setup lategame, not to mention that 100% crit chance skills do exists (and the low accuracy can be worked around). That being said, magic has been improved in Vengeance as skills like Heavenly Ikuyumi are pretty strong and there quite a few shenanigans people have been up too with the new Omagatoki effects; so, there are a lot of insane combinations if you are creative enough. It's just that physical attacks (with our without crit aura) are the easiest way to trigger critical hits... and those just dominate thanks to Critical Zealot and thus are the most straightforward way to do crazy damage in endgame.

Take, as an example, the clip you posted. It's great damage (probably around 5k damage?) but it requires you to set everything up and hit that during Omagatoki with the right demons and skills in your party and right fight conditions (a single target with random target attacks). On the other hand you could go with a full Murakumo setup and do 3-5k damage every one and a half rounds (with Omagatoki: Critical letting you land two in one round), magic can work well if you work around it... or you could just go crit and bonk stuff to death with a melee/crit build.

Originally posted by jigokuro:

And then what does Luck even do? I thought the game said it had to do with crits, but number I'm seeing flat percentages without any mention of it. Same for chance of applying status effects, and the proc rates of innate skills--all fixed percents...?

Luck boosts the odd of you dealing AND receiving critical hits, it slightly improves accuracy (at 1/3rd the rate of agility) and increases the odds of ailments landing. Any value listed are the BASE values that are then affected by variables like your luck, level (both yours and the enemies) and the difficulty as higher difficulties tend to penalize your ailment odds and increase the enemies chance of landing them on you.

Originally posted by jigokuro:

Bring this thread back up because I've found this thread to be very wrong. Pandemonic Feasts don't stack.

Sadly the game isn't persona popular and it's still early days so things are still being figured out. A lot of information can and will be fixed as people figure out things like these. A good example being Heavenly Ikuyumi, I've seen the exact bonus per status vary from source to source. It should still be mostly reliable.