Go Woke, Get Universal Acclaim!

[Romo]

With Metaphor and Silent Hill 2 selling and reviewing amazing, and seeing as they're both as woke as woke gets, it only makes sense for Veilguard to follow!

[Skyblue]

Автор сообщения: Ultima

Автор сообщения: Hellsmoke

I think it's too late for that and I personally welcome the inevitable over-correction, I think they deserve it. The rest of your post was spot on as well.

I understand where you're coming from, but I'd really like this cycle to end and for people to learn to truly tolerate one another. How extreme will the overcorrection that we're about to undergo be? How extreme will the views be of that new era of leftism in response to the prior shift be when the pendulum eventually swings back its way? It's a vicious circle that I fear is going to eventually lead to something worse than a culture war being played out in entertainment in the coming decades.

Автор сообщения: Skyblue

What’s up with Aphrodite now?

In Hades 2, they gave her some andro bone structure because being the goddess of beauty, they wanted her to embody both gynoid and android features. I didn't find this to be a big deal to stop me from playing Hades II, but it was the subject of the bad horny vs safe horny discourse for a while after the game was announced. Many of the sort of people I mentioned in my prior post were going ham with rule 34, but were the same neo-puritans shaming people for finding Eve or Tifa attractive at the time.

Oh I see. Twitter is largely bots or people so dumb I see them as bots. I wouldn’t bother. It seems to serve as a containment chamber nowadays.

[Pontianak Tamer]

Автор сообщения: Ka-mai19

Автор сообщения: Hellsmoke

Clearly you haven't been paying attention to history or current events.

It's got 9k reviews and is sitting at 95% positive on Steam, lol. 16k people playing, which is at the very least decent for a single-player game.

Not against you not with you.

Just wanted to point out that silent hill is also a strong IP and majority of the fans and players play horror for the horror nor for the sex appeal. It is also a game that

Not exactly the best angle of cross reference.

[Pontianak Tamer]

Автор сообщения: Ultima

Yeah, it's very hypocritical. On X, many of the neo-puritans will hate and mock you for liking conventionally attractive women. You click on their profile, and they're just as lecherous as their claims against anyone who wants to see stereotypically attractive characters. Sometimes they're NSFW artists themselves. It's fine if you're attracted to men, gender benders, fat and hairy women, and often much fetishistic stuff like inflation and furry art, but you must repent if you like overtly feminine women. I don't think there's anything wrong with people enjoying what they like and don't judge them for it, but I find it very hypocritical and on brand for Puritans in general historically.

Hahahaha yes, it is so weird, it clearly shows the side where it is rules for thee and not for me. That they vehemently fight against these sexualized selling points of games and back on their twitter or videos they will say ♥♥♥♥ like "I'm hot, I'm smart, I'm a slut and proud of it" or wearing a top that exposes the underboob stating "feeling cute, anyone wanna buy a top?" then go back to wearing their nose ring and flaming men for objectifying women.

It's giving Alyssa Mercante.

EDIT: What's hypocritical of them is also usually how they would totally shut us off in terms of opinions or facts the moment they disagree with us. The motivational statement of "cut toxic people out" really went overboard on this part. They claim to be not understood and oppressed yet oppress others and do their best not to understand them.

That's why we get people who say ♥♥♥♥ like "this youtuber can't be trusted" like asmongold or vara dark. They DO make sensible comments and non-grifting supporting content. They DO content that shows articles and interviews by the perpetrators themselves, there is hardly any imaginary stories.
Whatever happened to freedom of speech and listening to both sides of the stories.

I would welcome any video that talks about and defends the other side of the story but honestly there are barely any to be fair.

This is why it is still a crazy thought to me that there are people in this forum that still defend them despite the clear evidence. Stockholm Syndrome at its finest.

Автор сообщения: Ultima

There's a reason social conservatives, priests, etc are often closeted gay men and sometimes pedophiles. I've spoken on this vindictiveness before. I don't get what goes in on the psyche to cause this, but I wager it has something to do with the rubberband effect. A decade ago, people were far less tolerant of all these things than they are now. So now that social progressives have taken control of the AAA industry, they're lashing out against anyone who deviates from their worldview and even sexuality.

To be honest, I just class most of these as projection... Usually when someone fights against something so desperately is because it affects them in some manner, because if you truly didn't care you would have ignored them.

So, either it affects them via their kids being perverted by these exposure, family being broken up because of it. OR if they have none of these, it is because they exhibit such personalities themselves and are subconsciously ashamed of it.

Автор сообщения: Ultima

The problem is though, you can't program sexuality. You can't make men think the standard of beauty is Mary Jane in Spiderman 2 or Aphrodite in Hades 2, That's not something they logically choose to like or dislike. Men aren't en masse in the closet about liking unconventionally attractive characters. You see this disconnect with the idea that it's transphobic to not be attracted to trans women.

I think we need to remember as well, that 50% of beauty standards come from the other side of the 'male gaze' as well. Straight women, loves sexy women as well, they love a good curvy woman as well. They themselves strive to become this standard.

I think it is very naive as well to think that and lump that most men are afraid of trans; that it is a very convenient thing to throw around for activists to claim that they are being oppressed and something needs to be done and give them more benefits again. Most men aren't deathly afraid, it boils down to sex appeal again.

Have them intereact with a trans that looks, sounds and maybe act like an attractive woman in 99% of all aspects and you'd find most men are intrigued or not repulsed.

Автор сообщения: Ultima

Heck, I got someone here to outright admit to hating straight people and actively wanting to oppress heterosexuality, which is of course madness. To your point about Bayonetta. She became hated, people found out the creator was female, created a headcanon that she's gay, and then she has a daughter with the guy who's been trying to pull her throughout the series. Becomes hated as an object of the male gaze again.

Hah! There are many and increasingly so, these kinds of people that just outright hate the gender for no reason. Sometimes I think it is just a desperate claw for attention and clout to show "look I'm doing something significant and revolutionary!"

It is to the point where people screw their own minds and brainwash themselves to follow these like a cult and constantly hate on for no reason. But fortunately these are people who are usually deathly single and don't have an opposite gender child to be mature about.

I always like to say... This is not the machine we should be raging against in reference to the whole rage against the machine mentality of going against the societal norms.

Автор сообщения: Ultima

I've even seen memes where pictures of heterosexual families are being called fascism, which is outright bizarre to me. It is what it is, I suppose. I'd rather social progressives as a group realize that they ought to ease up and try to compromise considering they'll never be the majority, so we can avoid an over-correction. I guess that's inevitable though, because they'll never compromise till the entertainment industries have become so damaged that it's too late to reverse course.

Ahh yes, I recall that short period where traditional nuclear families are being shat on by liberals. I truly believe it is projection, mummy/daddy issues and abandonment issues.

I whole heartedly concur the woke crowd needs to be humbled and try to understand or persuade the other side rather than constantly wage war, although I find it funny that the anti-woke are being called the activists these days in this particular forum.

I never understood being a small minority and wanting to wage war against a majority instead of trying to persuade and convert them. In no way if things get ugly, would you win especially if you lump every single one of them together for either being complicit by ignoring the issues or just by being that gender or color.

But to be honest, the activists are fighting too many fronts and will eventually implode on themselves because many of these fronts they fight on actually clash with each other when they thought they were united because they banded together against a common enemy.
(Without going into specifics as I know some people will start going on about a different "war")

[Oku]

Автор сообщения: Pontianak Tamer

On the bright side

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUQHakubgqk&ab_channel=VaraDark-DarkTitanMedia

it's funny, I've been assured that SBI is the most evil monstrous politically vicious company ever that singularly causes the downfall of modern games and yet I've spent ages looking in to what they do and what they've done and I can find nothing but weird conspiracy theories from neo-nazi adjacent (or just straight up swastika-in-bio neo-nazis).

All SBI does is tell upper management at companies that hire them if their game has niche racist iconography or phrases or other such things that could cause a lot of outrage from certain groups, and then management decides if they want to do anything with that information. Sometimes they get asked to help with some writing, but other than that they are just a dime a dozen consultancy company for game companies.

The sheer volume of extreme harassment and threats and stalking and just overall disgusting behavior people throw at them for what ultimately amounts to an "anti-woke" shibboleth, signalling in-group membership of this deranged "movement" that has accomplished nothing besides making some people's lives worse and flooding every single game forum on steam with arguments about "wokeness".

Them scrubbing their website isn't "sus", it's due diligence. Y'all have committed such line-crossing harassment that they are now obligated to protect clients from you people however they can.

[AbyssDemon]

Автор сообщения: Pontianak Tamer

Автор сообщения: AbyssDemon

You see it's this kind of mental gymnastics that completely invalidates anyone's claims against SBI.

I get it, ethical consumption is hard but if people are going to stand on soapboxes "exposing SBI" and then go on a massive campaign to deter people from them they can't then in return hope that the thing they are using stops being their client.

Sunk cost nothing. You can't be against something due to a possibility that it'll hopefully go away. People give Steam way too much of a pass just because it's convenient.

There's no integrity in this, how can you trust a news source who's not even willing to tell you that?

Edit: And no what I mean is, I will look at the facts and data myself over listening to a Youtuber with a skewed biased present their opinion.

Once again, I have to put a disclaimer there are many people here that stand in the middle of the spectrum that sees the wrong in both sides. It isn't a simple binary "you are with me or against me" (the irony of supporting non-binaries right) in this debate. It seems like the moment SBI is being mentioned there is 2 extreme sides that immediately groups the rest as the enemy as long as they disagree.
(Which you already classified me as such just because I listen to this youtuber obviously)

You are viewing Valve as some sort of saint that is going to stick by SBI, it is still a company that takes its views on profits. Yes, the new generation is leaning towards DEI hence the trend of such consultations. If the backlash is strong enough and the numbers don't add up, we can be sure that actions will be taken to remove them, there is always a replacement or they could start their own "consultation" department.

There have been wildy viral games and high profit/kickstarter games that have been pulled out by valve, there is evidence that Valve will sever off the parts that will otherwise put them at the end of a backlash. Infact, Valve has just recently updated their steam subscriber agreement.

Ethical consumption isn't hard, as long as there is a logical spin or lore-friendly way about it that doesn't scream "Did it just because". That is the exact same reason why diversity wasn't such a big deal in the past as such in BioWare games. It is the new loud and obnoxious and "you don't have this" crowd that are destroying the scene. It only seems hard because you are so used to fighting the extreme anti-woke people and then blindly lump the rest under the same boat.

There are people who are going on a rant against SBI clearly because of what they have blurted out nonsense and are actively touching on IPs that would otherwise have immense potential. None of these youtubers have actively said to burn the witch's family and boycott these devs as well as IPs. Everyone wants to surgically remove SBI. Campaign or not, do you not hold an intervention when your friend is doing negatively?


"Sunk cost nothing. You can't be against something due to a possibility that it'll hopefully go away. People give Steam way too much of a pass just because it's convenient."

This just weirds me out, sunken cost is definitely a thing. Millions of people are against something and hoping that it will go away because they have no power over what happens.

Similarly to BioWare - EA. No one loved EA but you still supported BioWare and in turn supported EA.
Similarly to Blizzard - Activision + kotick. No one loved that drama but still equally supported when COD was good, when overwatch was good.
Similarly to many things even in real life, somethings or some people may have 1 or 2 flaws but you don't entirely burn the witch just because of 1 bad booboo on that end. All you can do is hope that they drop that negative point.

Sunken cost is definitely a thing, real life isn't like some anime or game where you expect everyone who is against something to immediately drop and delete their accounts with gusto and bravery just because they don't believe in SBI.
(Did you expect me to drop and delete my account of 2k games worth of money and march into the fade to fight a war or something? lol)

E.g. If you hated that steam now supports hentai/porn games, would you drop and stop buying games on steam and delete your account right here and now? No you wouldn't. You just hope it goes away.

This argument is honestly just a random ultimatum to an ultimately non-binary scenario.

Автор сообщения: AbyssDemon

There's no integrity in this, how can you trust a news source who's not even willing to tell you that?

Edit: And no what I mean is, I will look at the facts and data myself over listening to a Youtuber with a skewed biased present their opinion.

Like I've said, I believe in the empirical evidence they've shown, the listening to the rest of the youtuber is just listening to one side of the story. The other side of the story is what I would garner from you guys etc, if there are any youtubers that actually defends SBI and have some form of proper defense for whatever they have claimed.

There is no point is putting an ultimatum that you can't support steam and be in disagreement with SBI. You can't refute the claims they've made other than claim that people are deranged about SBI.

And again, because you are so entrenched in this "culture war" with the extreme other end, that you immediately classified us in the middle as the enemy, you automatically think that I absorb this youtuber's side of the story as gospel truth. As if people in this forum couldn't do the same as you and look at facts and data themselves over listening to a youtuber or even you?
(You realize how you vehemently disavow their arguments also puts you as a skewed bias to the guys on the grey area and weighing both sides)

There are already facts and dead games out there with SBI being around them as well. There is equally no integrity if you intentionally choose to ignore all these and just bite down on the fact that this youtuber has a more extreme view that you didn't like.

EDIT: It is insanely wild to me, that video evidence is shown of SBI, yet that part is being shrugged off as if them being a part of steam suddenly made them good. It is the very essence that people are whining and ranting about precisely because SBI has its roots this deep in the games' industry.

1. I am not here to convince you of anything, nor do I particularly care which corporation is screwing us over now. The difference between me and you is that I came here to play a game - and that's it. Imagine my surprise when all I saw is people repeating what youtubers are already saying like they have a moral obligation to do so.

2. I didn't call anyone deranged, nor am I part of a side or a you guys. You're in charge of your own opinion and posting someone who isn't impartial makes you look hypocritical.

3. I support the rights of all people, not just one group. Individuals are more important to me than a bunch of people forcing sides. Your problem is thinking that "in the middle" means I have to agree with you. I don't.

4. It's not news that corporations and companies are out to drain us dry. They do it in the workforce, they do it with inflation, they do it by lobbying governments - you want to see corporation that has its hand in crimes against humanity look up Nestlé and then look up how much products they indirectly own that funds them.

5. If you are going to use an extreme as part of your evidence with a skewed biased you are opened to be challenged.

6. You can twist my stance how you'd like, I was questioning the motivations of posting someone you know is a grifter and then not showing actual evidence devoid of a biased opinion.

7. I didn't say Steam is a saint or good. You did however prove my point that people will put blinders over their eyes when steam is brought up. If ethical consumption isn't hard, then sunk cost is irrelevant.

And finally, it's a freaking Dragon Age forum. This isn't where I go to actually talk about my opinions on how to change the industries.

[Pontianak Tamer]

Автор сообщения: Oku

Автор сообщения: Pontianak Tamer

On the bright side

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUQHakubgqk&ab_channel=VaraDark-DarkTitanMedia

it's funny, I've been assured that SBI is the most evil monstrous politically vicious company ever that singularly causes the downfall of modern games and yet I've spent ages looking in to what they do and what they've done and I can find nothing but weird conspiracy theories from neo-nazi adjacent (or just straight up swastika-in-bio neo-nazis).

All SBI does is tell upper management at companies that hire them if their game has niche racist iconography or phrases or other such things that could cause a lot of outrage from certain groups, and then management decides if they want to do anything with that information. Sometimes they get asked to help with some writing, but other than that they are just a dime a dozen consultancy company for game companies.

The sheer volume of extreme harassment and threats and stalking and just overall disgusting behavior people throw at them for what ultimately amounts to an "anti-woke" shibboleth, signalling in-group membership of this deranged "movement" that has accomplished nothing besides making some people's lives worse and flooding every single game forum on steam with arguments about "wokeness".

Them scrubbing their website isn't "sus", it's due diligence. Y'all have committed such line-crossing harassment that they are now obligated to protect clients from you people however they can.

That's the grey area being when titles are successful like God of War:Ragnarok, the group claims large credit for being a part of it.
Yet when titles suffer even in the narrative sense, they throw it to the games being ♥♥♥♥♥♥ in the first place like Suicide Squad and Gotham Knights.

Many companies have progressive people or people who are well versed in diversity for the longest of times. Many developers are progressive themselves (Look at BioWare). Are we seriously naive enough to think that these people couldn't have come up with statements to warn their own games/company about that has "phrases or other things" that could cause outrage? That they had to pay upwards to 8mil just for such consultation?

Yet such a consultation that doesn't do it in a gentle enough way that wouldn't cause a counter-outrage like with the current outrage that is being swept across social media and forums?

My argument with this being: We have to choose a side and determine once and for all if SBI is truly competent or just redundant. Otherwise it will be a scenario where they are praised for what little good they provided yet given a pass on the horrible incompetencies that they failed to achieve on others.
- So if we are claiming all SBI does is recommend and the companies decide whether or not to take them, why bother paying millions to not take in these feedback?
- If we are claiming that SBI is competent enough to consult a company to avoid outrage, how is it that they have managed to cause so much outrage? Majority of people aren't just magically hating on them for no reason.

Granted we do not have the information on what exactly SBI provided and what was used in the final product, we can't speculate further. Although, to prove their innocence they could've easily provided evidence or information whether or not their consultation has impacted the game negatively or not. This isn't even for games that are in development process and under NDA.

There is also video evidence of such people in the GDC (Game devs conference) advising people who are on about DEI to have a coffee with their marketing teams and threatening them on what will happen if they don't get what they want.

Again, you are lumping a few dozen crazies with the rest of the majority. Majority of the players that are against this aren't the neo-nazis and didn't bother to comment in this hostile manner. You can be sure that the youtubers aren't buying firearms to hunt for SBI members either.
You don't classify every single swiftie as a psycho just because 1 or 2 people love her so much they "want to wear her skin" would you?

They have no credibility to back themselves and prop their standing against these allegations that is why companies are requesting to be removed. It is only due diligence to them being "sus". Infact if they were diligent at all, they would have the results and backbone to back it up and explain themselves to companies.

[Pontianak Tamer]

Автор сообщения: AbyssDemon

1. I am not here to convince you of anything, nor do I particularly care which corporation is screwing us over now. The difference between me and you is that I came here to play a game - and that's it. Imagine my surprise when all I saw is people repeating what youtubers are already saying like they have a moral obligation to do so.

2. I didn't call anyone deranged, nor am I part of a side or a you guys. You're in charge of your own opinion and posting someone who isn't impartial makes you look hypocritical.

3. I support the rights of all people, not just one group. Individuals are more important to me than a bunch of people forcing sides. Your problem is thinking that "in the middle" means I have to agree with you. I don't.

4. It's not news that corporations and companies are out to drain us dry. They do it in the workforce, they do it with inflation, they do it by lobbying governments - you want to see corporation that has its hand in crimes against humanity look up Nestlé and then look up how much products they indirectly own that funds them.

5. If you are going to use an extreme as part of your evidence with a skewed biased you are opened to be challenged.

6. You can twist my stance how you'd like, I was questioning the motivations of posting someone you know is a grifter and then not showing actual evidence devoid of a biased opinion.

7. I didn't say Steam isca saint or good. You did however prove my point that people will out blinders over their eyes when steam is brought up. If ethical consumption isn't hard, then sunk cost is irrelevant.

And finally, it's a freaking Dragon Age forum. This isn't where I go to actually talk about my opinions on how to change the industries.

TL;DR I concur on some stuff and never fought on those pointers, but I disagree on many others. I'm ok if you think I'm delusional and you aren't wrong that the general forum is on DA:VG, we'll just keep it as agree to disagree

1. You speak of being open to challenge yet don't see the same happening to you, especially when you claim things like a youtuber doesn't have integrity or isn't valid just because of 1 minute pointer.

Likewise I'm not attempting to convince you otherwise I've already made my mind that I'm still purchasing the game and enjoying it albeit some shortfalls, but I can tell that your group are adamant on this DEI woke thing (The few names across this forum, not group lumping others).

To be fair, the topic was about "wokeness", I just replied light heartedly with a video about the evidence shown even made it clear it isn't about the youtuber's opinion. Imagine my surprise to be met by the anti-anti-woke brigade attempting to chide me on how bad this youtuber is. This is a high horse you got on with 0 impact claiming you came into this thread not expecting conversations about wokeness.

2. I've been hovering around the threads, you do make some reasonable points here and there but it is an observed fact that the moment SBI is mentioned you get up in arms regardless of what is mentioned. Similarly to #1 about me just posting the evidence light heartedly saying 'on the bright side'. If I were to post something that amplifies and echo chambers something like kotaku would it suddenly become better and not another impartial skewed bias?

I genuinely would like to find an impartial youtuber podcast/reviewer, even the famed moistcritikal is bias to his own perspective.

3. Likewise, I made the argument of being in the middle only because we kept being lumped together and called anti-woke just because we disagree with you. Glad you finally see my point.


4. Yup. You are correct.

5. I mention extreme ends because there is a large majority of people that don't actively hunt for SBI/woke, nor people who actively witch hunt anti-woke the moment SBI/woke is mentioned. There are many new people on the forum that don't even troll and are genuinely curious but the moment they mention this they are met by responses like "sigh, not more youtuber regurgitation" and start getting whaled on because there are sound arguments being made and they are genuinely concerned.

Empirical evidence shown does not equate to the opinions being sound out. So I'm not sure how you got that me mentioning there are extremists on either ends with skewed bias being a part of the/my evidence. These 2 are separate. I'm not sure how abundantly clear or simple I can make this, just like I've mentioned it's the article and video evidence that I'm sharing not the youtuber. If you have a youtuber that you like that defends SBI/wokeness and shares this kinda news, do share, I don't mind watching and hearing them and using them as a source if it makes you feel less offended that I didn't use a 'grifter'
(I am open to logical persuasion)

6. Once again, what isn't observable evidence...? The fact that she mentioned SBI revamped their website in response of the backlash and the website actually being changed? I'm honestly not trying to twist your stance, you just keep blurting these things out like I am,
I'm just saying, Youtuber says A, A is being observed, I don't really care about the rest of what Youtuber says nor have I used anything that she did mention against you.

Seriously, I'm not twisting your words but at this point even if she said "I am a woman" you wouldn't believe her cause you think she's a "grifter"

7. Ok so first you tell me, it's very unlikely that SBI will just go away from steam, so I made an argument on how that's all we can do is hope it goes away and that steam is liable to still drop anyone that causes inconvenience and loss for them.

Now you're telling me I proved your point because you didn't specifically say steam will never drop SBI since you mentioned that they have to pay a fraction of earnings to SBI. This is the real mental gymnastics here... What I'm getting is you're basically also supporting my point in that steam isn't a saint and will drop SBI in turn supporting my statement that we hope SBI will go away, no?

I'm highly curious on what thing people are covering up their eyes and giving steam a free pass on since you've mentioned it multiple times with no examples now. I am telling you that sunken cost is relevant because people have invested hundreds to thousands in games and won't stop using steam because of that, we have stakes and games in the library that are paid for. That is sunken cost. Sunken cost supports your argument of people blinding themselves for steam, I never fought you on the part that people give steam a free pass, infact I mentioned I support other platforms as well, this includes GoG and epic games store.

Huh what, if ethical consumption isn't hard then sunken cost is irrelevant? Huh? Can I ask what you mean by ethical consumption?

Me and the guys here like Ultima assume you mean ethical consumption is being ok to play with such "wokeness" content in our games? Or did you mean something else? It literally has nothing to do with sunken cost and having a stake in steam library.

[AbyssDemon]

Автор сообщения: Pontianak Tamer

Автор сообщения: AbyssDemon

1. I am not here to convince you of anything, nor do I particularly care which corporation is screwing us over now. The difference between me and you is that I came here to play a game - and that's it. Imagine my surprise when all I saw is people repeating what youtubers are already saying like they have a moral obligation to do so.

2. I didn't call anyone deranged, nor am I part of a side or a you guys. You're in charge of your own opinion and posting someone who isn't impartial makes you look hypocritical.

3. I support the rights of all people, not just one group. Individuals are more important to me than a bunch of people forcing sides. Your problem is thinking that "in the middle" means I have to agree with you. I don't.

4. It's not news that corporations and companies are out to drain us dry. They do it in the workforce, they do it with inflation, they do it by lobbying governments - you want to see corporation that has its hand in crimes against humanity look up Nestlé and then look up how much products they indirectly own that funds them.

5. If you are going to use an extreme as part of your evidence with a skewed biased you are opened to be challenged.

6. You can twist my stance how you'd like, I was questioning the motivations of posting someone you know is a grifter and then not showing actual evidence devoid of a biased opinion.

7. I didn't say Steam isca saint or good. You did however prove my point that people will out blinders over their eyes when steam is brought up. If ethical consumption isn't hard, then sunk cost is irrelevant.

And finally, it's a freaking Dragon Age forum. This isn't where I go to actually talk about my opinions on how to change the industries.

TL;DR I concur on some stuff and never fought on those pointers, but I disagree on many others. I'm ok if you think I'm delusional and you aren't wrong that the general forum is on DA:VG, we'll just keep it as agree to disagree

1. You speak of being open to challenge yet don't see the same happening to you, especially when you claim things like a youtuber doesn't have integrity or isn't valid just because of 1 minute pointer.

Likewise I'm not attempting to convince you otherwise I've already made my mind that I'm still purchasing the game and enjoying it albeit some shortfalls, but I can tell that your group are adamant on this DEI woke thing (The few names across this forum, not group lumping others).

To be fair, the topic was about "wokeness", I just replied light heartedly with a video about the evidence shown even made it clear it isn't about the youtuber's opinion. Imagine my surprise to be met by the anti-anti-woke brigade attempting to chide me on how bad this youtuber is. This is a high horse you got on with 0 impact claiming you came into this thread not expecting conversations about wokeness.

2. I've been hovering around the threads, you do make some reasonable points here and there but it is an observed fact that the moment SBI is mentioned you get up in arms regardless of what is mentioned. Similarly to #1 about me just posting the evidence light heartedly saying 'on the bright side'. If I were to post something that amplifies and echo chambers something like kotaku would it suddenly become better and not another impartial skewed bias?

I genuinely would like to find an impartial youtuber podcast/reviewer, even the famed moistcritikal is bias to his own perspective.

3. Likewise, I made the argument of being in the middle only because we kept being lumped together and called anti-woke just because we disagree with you. Glad you finally see my point.


4. Yup. You are correct.

5. I mention extreme ends because there is a large majority of people that don't actively hunt for SBI/woke, nor people who actively witch hunt anti-woke the moment SBI/woke is mentioned. There are many new people on the forum that don't even troll and are genuinely curious but the moment they mention this they are met by responses like "sigh, not more youtuber regurgitation" and start getting whaled on because there are sound arguments being made and they are genuinely concerned.

Empirical evidence shown does not equate to the opinions being sound out. So I'm not sure how you got that me mentioning there are extremists on either ends with skewed bias being a part of the/my evidence. These 2 are separate. I'm not sure how abundantly clear or simple I can make this, just like I've mentioned it's the article and video evidence that I'm sharing not the youtuber. If you have a youtuber that you like that defends SBI/wokeness and shares this kinda news, do share, I don't mind watching and hearing them and using them as a source if it makes you feel less offended that I didn't use a 'grifter'
(I am open to logical persuasion)

6. Once again, what isn't observable evidence...? The fact that she mentioned SBI revamped their website in response of the backlash and the website actually being changed? I'm honestly not trying to twist your stance, you just keep blurting these things out like I am,
I'm just saying, Youtuber says A, A is being observed, I don't really care about the rest of what Youtuber says nor have I used anything that she did mention against you.

Seriously, I'm not twisting your words but at this point even if she said "I am a woman" you wouldn't believe her cause you think she's a "grifter"

7. Ok so first you tell me, it's very unlikely that SBI will just go away from steam, so I made an argument on how that's all we can do is hope it goes away and that steam is liable to still drop anyone that causes inconvenience and loss for them.

Now you're telling me I proved your point because you didn't specifically say steam will never drop SBI since you mentioned that they have to pay a fraction of earnings to SBI. This is the real mental gymnastics here... What I'm getting is you're basically also supporting my point in that steam isn't a saint and will drop SBI in turn supporting my statement that we hope SBI will go away, no?

I'm highly curious on what thing people are covering up their eyes and giving steam a free pass on since you've mentioned it multiple times with no examples now. I am telling you that sunken cost is relevant because people have invested hundreds to thousands in games and won't stop using steam because of that, we have stakes and games in the library that are paid for. That is sunken cost. Sunken cost supports your argument of people blinding themselves for steam, I never fought you on the part that people give steam a free pass, infact I mentioned I support other platforms as well, this includes GoG and epic games store.

Huh what, if ethical consumption isn't hard then sunken cost is irrelevant? Huh? Can I ask what you mean by ethical consumption?

Me and the guys here like Ultima assume you mean ethical consumption is being ok to play with such "wokeness" content in our games? Or did you mean something else? It literally has nothing to do with sunken cost and having a stake in steam library.

Look man, I am not marking you as delusional or deranged. You are the one giving yourself that title and probably from people who have marked you as such, or because you feel crazy because no one "believes" you. My issue has nothing to do with SBI which is why I roll my eyes whenever people want to use ONE company has a scapegoat. Wokeness has nothing to do with it, it's just corporation and if people spent less time accusing people who want to play games of being shills, stupid or dumb they'd care more about the individual person behind it.

And here is an article that I think both acknowledges the outage at SBI but ultimately is talking about a bigger problem:
https://www.thegamer.com/diversity-consultants-sweet-baby-inc-gaming-worse-live-service/

And if you want to understand my issues with scapegoating SBI and the very not impartial DEIdetected group then I encourage you to review their website:

https://deidetected.com/

And I don't have it now but if even KotakuInAction forums all you a grifter ( the guy who started the SBI curator group and videos) then it was never started to inform people of anything.

That is my problem. Hypocrisy.

[Pontianak Tamer]

Автор сообщения: AbyssDemon

And here is an article that I think both acknowledges the outage at SBI but ultimately is talking about a bigger problem:
https://www.thegamer.com/diversity-consultants-sweet-baby-inc-gaming-worse-live-service/

And if you want to understand my issues with scapegoating SBI and the very not impartial DEIdetected group then I encourage you to review their website:

https://deidetected.com/

And I don't have it now but if even KotakuInAction forums all you a grifter ( the guy who started the SBI curator group and videos) then it was never started to inform people of anything.

That is my problem. Hypocrisy.

I don't disagree that diversity adds variety, there are ways to incorporate it without it being obnoxious and like with everything is good in sufficient amount but never in excess. Even duke nukem got nuked for being excessively "macho".

I do understand, and like above I believe a certain amount is ok, I don't go out on a limb to hunt for these and don't use DEID either. Many of us don't think this is right either and it is pointless to witch hunt to the point of just names being mentioned. We do make assessments based on what we observe on our own.

What I meant was that most progressive or open minded people have some level of basic to intermediary level of diversity and inclusivity respect. Many of these are the game devs themselves. So it doesn't make sense to pay upwards to millions just for this level of consultation.
This plus what we wanted to emphasize was that SBI has admitted to sabotaging the industry and that is the aligning point.

Yes it is bad to victim blame, but it is also bad to constantly use the victim card. I wouldn't say it is scape goating SBI at all. SBI is hardly the singular company being blamed for this, it is just the largest and easiest target. Concord and Dustborn were in no way in the process of SBI but are equally on the target board. The example of things being in excess being bad.

Partnered with the fact that they have roots in failed games and what they admitted is what's damning in all of these. We can say that diversity consultants only advise; but these could have easily been millions of budget put into better gameplay mechanics, salaries for people who actually contribute to the game, time and Q&A spent fixing bugs and providing feedback.
Yes, it isn't the devs that brought them in but the fact remains that it is millions squandered. Scapegoat or not, they are a causal factor to degraded quality.


Hypocrisy exists on both sides when the first contact is always passive aggressiveness or hostility rather than educated people and attempting to persuade. There are always pros and cons to everything and that is why there are different people who stand on different sides.

See if you started with attempting to educate people that excessive "anti-woke" is bad and used this site it would have pushed much more understanding than just "this youtuber is a grifter"
(Difference being this DEID website is predatory in nature and aiming/stalking whilst youtubers who are also gamers themselves bring about awareness and their opinions on these matters)

EDIT: But yeah this is probably my last debating reply, I want to play more games and I have a bad obsession of camping for replies.

And also wanted to add that, it is highly hypocritical that SBI gunned for these youtubers' to be shutdown which was also their livelihood at that point of time much like how DEID is gunning for DEI staff. Just food for thought about this whole "rules for thee but not for me" scenario

[DarkestShadow]

Автор сообщения: Pontianak Tamer

Автор сообщения: AbyssDemon

You see it's this kind of mental gymnastics that completely invalidates anyone's claims against SBI.

I get it, ethical consumption is hard but if people are going to stand on soapboxes "exposing SBI" and then go on a massive campaign to deter people from them they can't then in return hope that the thing they are using stops being their client.

Sunk cost nothing. You can't be against something due to a possibility that it'll hopefully go away. People give Steam way too much of a pass just because it's convenient.

There's no integrity in this, how can you trust a news source who's not even willing to tell you that?

Edit: And no what I mean is, I will look at the facts and data myself over listening to a Youtuber with a skewed biased present their opinion.

Once again, I have to put a disclaimer there are many people here that stand in the middle of the spectrum that sees the wrong in both sides. It isn't a simple binary "you are with me or against me" (the irony of supporting non-binaries right) in this debate. It seems like the moment SBI is being mentioned there is 2 extreme sides that immediately groups the rest as the enemy as long as they disagree.
(Which you already classified me as such just because I listen to this youtuber obviously)

You are viewing Valve as some sort of saint that is going to stick by SBI, it is still a company that takes its views on profits. Yes, the new generation is leaning towards DEI hence the trend of such consultations. If the backlash is strong enough and the numbers don't add up, we can be sure that actions will be taken to remove them, there is always a replacement or they could start their own "consultation" department.

There have been wildy viral games and high profit/kickstarter games that have been pulled out by valve, there is evidence that Valve will sever off the parts that will otherwise put them at the end of a backlash. Infact, Valve has just recently updated their steam subscriber agreement.

Ethical consumption isn't hard, as long as there is a logical spin or lore-friendly way about it that doesn't scream "Did it just because". That is the exact same reason why diversity wasn't such a big deal in the past as such in BioWare games. It is the new loud and obnoxious and "you don't have this" crowd that are destroying the scene. It only seems hard because you are so used to fighting the extreme anti-woke people and then blindly lump the rest under the same boat.

There are people who are going on a rant against SBI clearly because of what they have blurted out nonsense and are actively touching on IPs that would otherwise have immense potential. None of these youtubers have actively said to burn the witch's family and boycott these devs as well as IPs. Everyone wants to surgically remove SBI. Campaign or not, do you not hold an intervention when your friend is doing negatively?


"Sunk cost nothing. You can't be against something due to a possibility that it'll hopefully go away. People give Steam way too much of a pass just because it's convenient."

This just weirds me out, sunken cost is definitely a thing. Millions of people are against something and hoping that it will go away because they have no power over what happens.

Similarly to BioWare - EA. No one loved EA but you still supported BioWare and in turn supported EA.
Similarly to Blizzard - Activision + kotick. No one loved that drama but still equally supported when COD was good, when overwatch was good.
Similarly to many things even in real life, somethings or some people may have 1 or 2 flaws but you don't entirely burn the witch just because of 1 bad booboo on that end. All you can do is hope that they drop that negative point.

Sunken cost is definitely a thing, real life isn't like some anime or game where you expect everyone who is against something to immediately drop and delete their accounts with gusto and bravery just because they don't believe in SBI.
(Did you expect me to drop and delete my account of 2k games worth of money and march into the fade to fight a war or something? lol)

E.g. If you hated that steam now supports hentai/porn games, would you drop and stop buying games on steam and delete your account right here and now? No you wouldn't. You just hope it goes away.

This argument is honestly just a random ultimatum to an ultimately non-binary scenario.

Автор сообщения: AbyssDemon

There's no integrity in this, how can you trust a news source who's not even willing to tell you that?

Edit: And no what I mean is, I will look at the facts and data myself over listening to a Youtuber with a skewed biased present their opinion.

Like I've said, I believe in the empirical evidence they've shown, the listening to the rest of the youtuber is just listening to one side of the story. The other side of the story is what I would garner from you guys etc, if there are any youtubers that actually defends SBI and have some form of proper defense for whatever they have claimed.

There is no point is putting an ultimatum that you can't support steam and be in disagreement with SBI. You can't refute the claims they've made other than claim that people are deranged about SBI.

And again, because you are so entrenched in this "culture war" with the extreme other end, that you immediately classified us in the middle as the enemy, you automatically think that I absorb this youtuber's side of the story as gospel truth. As if people in this forum couldn't do the same as you and look at facts and data themselves over listening to a youtuber or even you?
(You realize how you vehemently disavow their arguments also puts you as a skewed bias to the guys on the grey area and weighing both sides)

There are already facts and dead games out there with SBI being around them as well. There is equally no integrity if you intentionally choose to ignore all these and just bite down on the fact that this youtuber has a more extreme view that you didn't like.

EDIT: It is insanely wild to me, that video evidence is shown of SBI, yet that part is being shrugged off as if them being a part of steam suddenly made them good. It is the very essence that people are whining and ranting about precisely because SBI has its roots this deep in the games' industry.

Very well put

[Kalgert]

Автор сообщения: Hellsmoke

Автор сообщения: AdahnGorion

Look at its peak.
It has a lower concurrent than even niche indie games

25k peak concurrent is terrible for a Silent Hill game. As a fan myself I most certainly passed on it due to how the characters look. Any game that has uglified characters gets an instant pass from me, I'm not paying for that.

Maybe one day when it's on sale for $5 I'll pick it up but I doubt it. The fact that they uglified the characters on purpose turns me off to the whole game in general. I think I'd lose a lot of self respect if I gave them my money and that's worth more than a game to me.

People should really start to understand that purposeful uglification is something that would turn people off from games.

Wasn't Capcom or some other outlet that not too long ago put out results of a survey that said that gameplay and character aesthetics are the two primary things that people care about? So I think it's perfectly reasonable to say that when characters are made aesthetically unpleasing on purpose, it's bound to rub people the wrong way.

[Pontianak Tamer]

Автор сообщения: Hellsmoke

Yeah it makes no sense to me, just like the top surgery scars in this game, it's absolutely ridiculous. If I was a transgender man who had top surgery, I'd want to forget that surgery and play as a man.

For some odd reason they think people want to play themselves in games rather than enjoy the escapism. I bet they think a guy who is sitting in a wheelchair wants one in the games he pays as well. Nope, that guy wants to FLY in video games. The last thing he wants to think about is his rl situation. That's what escapism is all about.

I find it baffling how out of touch with reality some people are. And then they wonder why their games and movies fail.

Ye know, you might be on to something. Escapism.

This may be catered for the people who are afraid to actually go for top surgery so it allows them to escape reality and roleplay as such. Instead of what we've been thinking that it was for trans who already did it.

It makes sense, maybe that is why Rainbow Six Siege has a wheelchair bound SWAT-like commando now

[Pontianak Tamer]

Автор сообщения: Hellsmoke

You're joking right? Lmao, you can't make this stuff up! I didn't know this was a thing.

The gaming industry is in real trouble, we should have gatekept it a lot harder.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MAD2DiS1qU&ab_channel=Ubisoft

Granted you play as her remote controlled bots, so it still made sense and added variety. This tokenism is still logical gameplay wise

[pr1mus]

Автор сообщения: Hellsmoke

Yeah it makes no sense to me, just like the top surgery scars in this game, it's absolutely ridiculous. If I was a transgender man who had top surgery, I'd want to forget that surgery and play as a man.

well you're not a transgender man so your input of what you'd do in such a hypothetical scenario is rather moot compared to trans men who do enjoy having the prerogative to model their character as an approximation of what they look like in real life.

Автор сообщения: Hellsmoke

For some odd reason they think people want to play themselves in games rather than enjoy the escapism. I bet they think a guy who is sitting in a wheelchair wants one in the games he pays as well. Nope, that guy wants to FLY in video games. The last thing he wants to think about is his rl situation. That's what escapism is all about.

haha you have literally no clue about about what people want out of their video games, and RPG's in particular.

[a x o]

Автор сообщения: AbyssDemon

you're better of listening to Asmongold.

🤡