DEI Discussion

[Dunbary]

People don't dislike when games have a ♥♥♥ person or a black person in the game. When a game has these characters incidentally and it makes sense within the world it is understandable as it was in BG3.

What people *dont* like is when a game leans on its representation as its core feature. Having a black person or ♥♥♥ person doesnt make a game good in and of itself. If you're on board with this representation, you should want games to be made well as well as representing characters and ideologies from differing viewpoints. However what tends to happen more often than not is that games are made either of middling or poor quality, but it has representation in order to garner good reviews since it might align with the general cultural zeitgeist.

So when people are "anti-woke", it's just shorthand for saying "these developers didn't/couldn't make a good game so they made their game very visibly pandering to diversity in order to shield it from criticism". All that said, I hope this title is good.

[.Master Jiren, The Strongest]

I'll give a short, easy example. Black Widow is a character that is a spy and an assassin. she does this regardless of her biological ♥♥♥. in the last couple movies she was in, she had a heterosexual love interest with Hulk, and this wasn't even a B story, it was like a C story, and had no impact on anything, it was only acknowledged by 1 other character, nothing ever came of it, and no one cared (and was not overwhelmingly supported for being "straight inclusive")

If however, they did the story where black widow was constantly oppressed for being a woman (and I don't mean just mentioning it one time), she suddenly becomes ♥♥♥ and every scene has to have some nod to her relationship while other characters are constantly applauding her for being so brave and the fate of that relationship was somehow featured in the climax of the battle against Thanos--That would be woke.

If you start with the idea "im gunna make a ♥♥♥ character" and then build the story around them being ♥♥♥, versus "im gunna make an assassin character" and then as part of one of their character traits you make them ♥♥♥. thats the difference.

and i dont know why people dont get this, but the lgbtq community doesn't want to be pandered too anymore than any other community. you can have a ♥♥♥ character or a black character or whatever without being central to their plot. Jamie Foxx's race had nothing to do with his character in Spiderman. Chris Evan's race has nothing to do with his character in Captain America.

The only people that support woke pandering are activists. regular, ordinary people, from every community, don't want to be pandered too. they want to be represented in an organic way.

[Defective Dopamine Pez Dispenser]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Dunbary:

How about I change that wording to be: "It's fine when such black/♥♥♥ characters are only in stories where they are believable characters and it's believable for them to be there".

I find the scenes people seem to be fixating on perfectly believable in the fictional context and within the premise being conveyed though, is the thing. Because, somewhat cringe-inducing dialogue aside (which, again, I feel has been present in every DA game... heck, every BioWare game honestly) I actually find the characters interesting and scene engaging, personally.

I'm not nitpicking the lore or worldbuilding or ludonarrative dissonance, personally. I'm trying to interpret the characters' intentions and words and think about how to respond in the scene as the player character, personally. If I wanted to nitpick, I could do so with virtually every game BioWare has ever made, frankly.

Why is Carth so distrustful of me despite repeatedly showing I'm totally forthright and dependable? Why is he going on and on and on about that fact? Why is there so much forced exposition in his dialogue? Why do his dialogues often feel like info dumps? Why does our romance feel contrived? Is he just there to be "the romance character?"

Why don't his responses escalate more meaningfully in the face of dark side actions, sooner? How is a seasoned Republic soldier so unnaturally and poorly acquainted with leadership, cooperation, and group coordination? Why doesn't he react to many of the things other party members do? Why is his reaction to learning that we're Revan so muted in contrast to what one might expect given his history?

It feels so 'forced.'

Now of course, that's anathema to people, and they'll say it's not the same, it's false equivalency because we have more moral RP agency in KOTOR, etc. etc. Or whatever the argument ends up being. And those aren't my actual views anyway, I'm just playing the devil's advocate. But the point is, anything can feel 'forced' depending on how it's received and analyzed. But we don't put the same spotlight on a character like Carth or nitpick it to death, and justify not doing so by saying, "well, but, he was well written, this game isn't."

I mean... okay. If people say so.

The problem is that a lot of people are taking how they feel in response to some of the things in this game, and assuming that's the default, intuitive gut reaction to it, when some of us watch that and just feel just as unbothered or even intrigued as we do for a character like Carth. There is nothing inherently jarring or 'forced' feeling about it to me personally.

And I personally like the fact that the game not only has such characters, but makes their experiences a core part of their characterization. People always say things like, "In real life, people are more than (insert identity,) so it shouldn't be the totality of their character," and while that's true... and yes, avoiding becoming caricatures is essential... how often do we actually get characters where it's even a large, or at all central component of their arc, side quests, etc.?

I don't think it's that forced or beyond the pale simply to have a character where that's the case, frankly. Or where scenes like this one that do happen, play out in this fictional context. But that's just me. 🤷🏻‍♂️

[TaKo]

Diposting pertama kali oleh felker27:

Are you impying that they become one?.

smartest chud

Diposting pertama kali oleh felker27:

Also no, with a caring mother, strong father, and a good amount of dicipline they never become one.

you pieces of ♥♥♥♥ cant act like you are fine with ♥♥♥ people "if its done right" then come around and say "being anything but cishet is a case of bad parenting"

Diposting pertama kali oleh Dunbary:

Sanest Veilguard Enjoyer

what part of the ♥♥♥ panic did you miss?

[TaKo]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Defective Dopamine Pez Dispenser:

🤷🏻‍♂️

im sorry but you are wasting your breath, nothing you say will make these people get a hint, they dont care about the game, the franchise, bioware, or whatever, its just the latest New Thing to hate on and when the dust settles they'll move on to the next New Thing and pretend they never cared for veilguard when/if it ends up doing well sales wise(which by all indications it definitely will)

[Hedonist]

Diposting pertama kali oleh IRMcG:

So how does this game have representation as a core feature ? Because of character creation options ?

Go watch video reviews and cut scenes on YouTube. It was so blatant and too much.

BG3 has inclusivity and a very diverse race, but no real world politics included.

[Grahf]

Diposting pertama kali oleh TaKo:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Grahf:

As a father of 2 and a lifetime gamer, I’m heartbroken

you sound like someone who should not be a parent

legitimately worried for your kids should they end up being something you hate so much due to your bigotry

I am a military veteran, served 4 years active duty in the army and did a tour overseas. I am currently a police officer and serve the community I live in. Most importantly I am a Christian and a father.

I love my kids more than anything, I do my job as a father and teach them to love themselves as God has made them, one a boy and one a girl.

I would never push my beliefs onto you as a Christian and respect your right to have your own views as an American. It has been proven over and again that the trans ideology is very harmful to people’s mental and physical health. That is why I believe it is wrong to push it onto people forcefully in a video game.

I wish you well.

[TaKo]

Diposting pertama kali oleh felker27:

Counter argument well made

yeah man let me bother to write an essay about how implying being ♥♥♥ or trans = bad parenting is a bad thing, let me be perfectly polite to a piece of ♥♥♥♥ regurgitating the most vile bigotry at me

♥♥♥♥ off you concern troll ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥

[TaKo]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Grahf:

I am a military veteran ... I am currently a police officer

of course

Diposting pertama kali oleh Grahf:

I love my kids more than anything, I do my job as a father and teach them to love themselves as God has made them, one a boy and one a girl.

again, you sound like someone who would kick ur kids to the curb if they dared to go against your 'teachings'

Diposting pertama kali oleh Grahf:

. It has been proven over and again that the trans ideology is very harmful to people’s mental and physical health.

literally every study shows that the main cause of mental and physical health issues experienced by trans people are due to bigotry, lack of support from family and peers, discriminatory legislation and lack of access to healthcare

christ would spit on you

Diposting pertama kali oleh Grahf:

I wish you well.

i wish that if your kids do turn out to be something you hate that they find people they can actually lean on

[shelledfade]

Should just be able to choose your companions characteristics/personality in some kind of menu before you start the game similar to a main char customization. This would resolve some of these issues. Would cost a lot more to develop but if you aren't doing that and your writing is pushing an agenda, you're going to alienate your audience one way or another.

[TaKo]

Diposting pertama kali oleh felker27:

a made up term

every word is made up you whiney baby

do you say the same thing about abled? straight? right and left handed? are you stupid?(trick question i know you dont have 2 brain cells to rub together)

Diposting pertama kali oleh felker27:

l that trans are the real deal

is this trying to imply "trans people arent real actually" im assuming yes and that you're gonna reply with something along the lines of "yeah they're just mentally ill"

Diposting pertama kali oleh shelledfade:

Should just be able to choose your companions characteristics/personality

we call this censorship

anyways enjoy being pieces of ♥♥♥♥, im gonna go do smth productive with my day

[Mkhuseli5k]

Diposting pertama kali oleh felker27:

Diposting pertama kali oleh TaKo:

"being anything but cishet is a case of bad parenting"

Anyone saying "cis" should not have an opinion, a made up term to feel that trans are the real deal and everyone else needs to be catagorized.

Oh my god, bro. This is bigotry. This is pure bigotry. Are you going to say Hetero is to make homosexuals feel real too?

[Dunbary]

Diposting pertama kali oleh TaKo:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Grahf:

I am a military veteran ... I am currently a police officer

of course

Diposting pertama kali oleh Grahf:

I love my kids more than anything, I do my job as a father and teach them to love themselves as God has made them, one a boy and one a girl.

again, you sound like someone who would kick ur kids to the curb if they dared to go against your 'teachings'

Diposting pertama kali oleh Grahf:

. It has been proven over and again that the trans ideology is very harmful to people’s mental and physical health.

literally every study shows that the main cause of mental and physical health issues experienced by trans people are due to bigotry, lack of support from family and peers, discriminatory legislation and lack of access to healthcare

christ would spit on you

Diposting pertama kali oleh Grahf:

I wish you well.

i wish that if your kids do turn out to be something you hate that they find people they can actually lean on

Are you just trolling or do you actually still think youre the 'good guy' here saying that some father would be spat on by christ? My goodness, take a look at yourself in the mirror.

[TaKo]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Dunbary:

Are you just trolling or do you actually still think youre the 'good guy'

yes i do think im the good guy and the bigot saying ♥♥♥♥ like "transgenderism is unhealthy uwu" is the bad guy

i was raised christian and im very aware of the actual teachings of christ which does not include "discriminate against people and take part in moral panics about minorities"

[Dunbary]

Diposting pertama kali oleh TaKo:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Dunbary:

Are you just trolling or do you actually still think youre the 'good guy'

yes i do think im the good guy and the bigot saying ♥♥♥♥ like "transgenderism is unhealthy uwu" is the bad guy

i was raised christian and im very aware of the actual teachings of christ which does not include "discriminate against people and take part in moral panics about minorities"

Could you quote me the chapter and verse where ♥♥♥♥♥ spit on anybody? Since youre so knowledgeable, mr. good person